UK Broadband users are ripped off

[Ignition]

Originally Posted by kronas

this is not new its been known for a long time that broadband in the uk is expensive but you have got to ask who is paying for the infastructure in this case it seems yahoo BB are

Actually it is being provided by the Japanese equivalent of BT, NTT for the most part. NTT also offer a wholesale Fibre to home product. Yahoo are reselling NTT wholesale products, in the same manner that DSL providers in the UK sell the massive 512k and 1Mbit products that BT offer.

Speed rises to that extent? USA is just up to 3Mbit / 384kbit on cable, but 30GB month down, 7.5GB a month upstream, Canada cable goes higher but comes with the dreaded cap with even lower limits.

Other side is what's the point at the moment? Until the demand is really there it's not worth it. BT or Telewest or ntl: will twitch at some point and speeds will burst up, but whether it'll stay on relatively low contention and unlimited is a very different matter. More than likely it won't, you can't have low contention, high speeds and no limits on data transfer for a low price, just not feasible. Give and take from ISPs and customers really.

Japan are tech junkies, they regard these connections we consider as extreme speeds as just another utility. Most UK people are quite happy with 150k or 512k, some downright ecstatic with it, and only a small minority of cable customers take 1Mbit. This is partly to do with the price of the service no doubt, but while 512k is perceived as being a good connection higher speeds will be slow. People need to raise their expectations for the max speeds they need, at the same time lower them as far as qualty of service goes.

[Jerrek]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherN00b

Speed rises to that extent? USA is just up to 3Mbit / 384kbit on cable, but 30GB month down, 7.5GB a month upstream, Canada cable goes higher but comes with the dreaded cap with even lower limits.

Fascinating. I wasn't aware I had a cap. Nor was I aware that the other cable companies, Shaw, Rogers, Videotron, and Telus, had caps. Some DSL providers have caps, but Bell Sympatico (1.5 Mb for regular, 3 Mb for pro package) does not have caps. They had caps last year for all of nine months when people decided to get rid of it and get cable. How fast they changed their tune.

Meanwhile, my cable company just raised my down speed to 7 Mb. I'm quite content with that for now. Of course, 26 Mb would be nice, but as it is right now I can get a 700 MB movie in just over 20 minutes from Usenet.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by paulyoung666

its around £35000 / year before it kicks in if i remember rightly , and arent japan and sweden very expensive places to live anyway ??????????????

It's around the £30k mark

[Dooby]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

It's around the £30k mark

http://www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/rates/it.htm
its on any taxable earnings over £30,500 ( i.e. after you have deducted the 'tax free' portion of your earnings, so for most people that is £30,500 +£4,615 =£35,11 5)

[kronas]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherN00b

Actually it is being provided by the Japanese equivalent of BT, NTT for the most part. NTT also offer a wholesale Fibre to home product. Yahoo are reselling NTT wholesale products, in the same manner that DSL providers in the UK sell the massive 512k and 1Mbit products that BT offer.

correct

Originally Posted by JustAnotherN00b

Speed rises to that extent? USA is just up to 3Mbit / 384kbit on cable, but 30GB month down, 7.5GB a month upstream, Canada cable goes higher but comes with the dreaded cap with even lower limits.

as jerrek pointed out there are high speed services without caps because people
power has resisted it

Originally Posted by JustAnotherN00b

Other side is what's the point at the moment? Until the demand is really there it's not worth it. BT or Telewest or ntl: will twitch at some point and speeds will burst up, but whether it'll stay on relatively low contention and unlimited is a very different matter. More than likely it won't, you can't have low contention, high speeds and no limits on data transfer for a low price, just not feasible. Give and take from ISPs and customers really.

demand is there more and more people are discovering broadband and if used correctly it can be beneficial to anybody the networks in this country are outdated they need upgrades so that they can handle high speeds the fibre is there in the ground its the local networks and laying fibre to the home that i want to see

Originally Posted by JustAnotherN00b

Japan are tech junkies

yes and we would not have quite a number of things(electrical) if they werent

Originally Posted by JustAnotherN00b

they regard these connections we consider as extreme speeds as just another utility.

the uk is always behind others in technology

Originally Posted by JustAnotherN00b

Most UK people are quite happy with 150k or 512k, some downright ecstatic with it, and only a small minority of cable customers take 1Mbit. This is partly to do with the price of the service no doubt, but while 512k is perceived as being a good connection higher speeds will be slow. People need to raise their expectations for the max speeds they need, at the same time lower them as far as qualty of service goes.

i agree most people are content with 512k or 128k for occasional use but in order to build a good service you must move forward the planning system for increased speeds in other countries demand is there because cable has been available longer and people understand how cable can have a positive affect on education and a quick source of information

studys have shown broadband will aid the economy to the tune of £22bn by 2015............

so im not just looking out for myself it would be a great asset for the whole of the uk to have a high speed network

[erol]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherN00b

Actually it is being provided by the Japanese equivalent of BT, NTT for the most part. NTT also offer a wholesale Fibre to home product. Yahoo are reselling NTT wholesale products, in the same manner that DSL providers in the UK sell the massive 512k and 1Mbit products that BT offer.

That's not quite accurate. There is a very big difference between the unbundled BT products here and the unbundled NTT products in Japan (which are generaly considered interconection products and not wholesale products btw).

In the UK BT was forced to offer competing operators access to it's local loops, at a regulated cost plus basis. In Japan this is also the case but they (japanese gov) ALSO have forced NTT to 'unbundle' (offer competitors cost plus access to) their dark fiber. This is not the case in the UK and is a major reason that YahooBB in Japan have been able to build their network and offer competing products that are 'superior' to those on offer in the UK. There are of course other factors involved but this is proabaly the biggest single factor / difference.

To Kronas

'Bandwidth' does cost money of course but it is a very minor part of the overall cost of provision of BB. I would estimate it at less than 5% of the total cost of provision (and maybe as low as 1%). It is also very subject to 'economies of scale' so if X amount of 'bandwidth' (external connectivity to the internet) cost Y then 10 * X does NOT cosy 10 * Y. Also such external connectivity is usualy a matter of peering agreements rather than interconnect agreeements and thus the economies of 'getting it' are very different.

[Ignition]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Fascinating. I wasn't aware I had a cap. Nor was I aware that the other cable companies, Shaw, Rogers, Videotron, and Telus, had caps. Some DSL providers have caps, but Bell Sympatico (1.5 Mb for regular, 3 Mb for pro package) does not have caps. They had caps last year for all of nine months when people decided to get rid of it and get cable. How fast they changed their tune.

Meanwhile, my cable company just raised my down speed to 7 Mb. I'm quite content with that for now. Of course, 26 Mb would be nice, but as it is right now I can get a 700 MB movie in just over 20 minutes from Usenet.

From www.videotron.ca:

VidÃÃâ€*’©otron high-speed Internet
Download speed 3.1 Mbps
Download capacity 15 GB
Upload capacity 5 GB

But to be fair:

VidÃÃâ€*’©otron Extreme High-Speed Internet
Download speed (from the Internet to your computer) 4 Mbps
(up to 70 times faster than a 56 kbps modem)
Upload speed (from your computer to the Internet) 640 kbps
Monthly download capacity Unlimited
Monthly upload capacity Unlimited
Connection time Unlimited
Cheap too.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/rema...cast~mode=flat

Comcast's capping.

http://www.globetechnology.com/servl...ry/Technology/

Rogers

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/rema...1623~mode=flat

Telus

So monsieur Kronas - people power didn't work, and caps are a fact of life really in some places. If they mean faster speeds I'm all in favour to be honest.
Jerrek your ISP is?

[kronas]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherN00b

From www.videotron.ca:

So monsieur Kronas - people power didn't work, and caps are a fact of life really in some places. If they mean faster speeds I'm all in favour to be honest.
Jerrek your ISP is?

not every isp is uncapped i have never claimed that

Originally Posted by erol

To Kronas

'Bandwidth' does cost money of course but it is a very minor part of the overall cost of provision of BB. I would estimate it at less than 5% of the total cost of provision (and maybe as low as 1%). It is also very subject to 'economies of scale' so if X amount of 'bandwidth' (external connectivity to the internet) cost Y then 10 * X does NOT cosy 10 * Y. Also such external connectivity is usualy a matter of peering agreements rather than interconnect agreeements and thus the economies of 'getting it' are very different.

maintenance to the network,techs customer service tech support people have to be paid as well there those hidden costs higher speeds can be achieved but not without investment looking at NTL's current state your telling me they can invest in the modifications needed for the network docsis etc ?

[Jerrek]

(snip stuff about Videotron

Fascinating. Just like Cogeco, my ISP. BUT, if you dug a little deeper you would have noticed that it is there for legal reasons, and legal reasons only, and that they don't enforce their capping. I've done 155 GB so far this month, and last month I did 141 GB. I've been doing a pretty constant 50 GB + for the past four years and no complaint. So, no cap.

Comcast's capping.

Comcast is in the United States, not Canada.

Rogers

Rogers has no cap. The link you're giving is in error.

Telus

Telus is reselling Shaw lines. They too have never billed a person for excessive usage.

Go to www.broadbandreports.com and then go to Canadian broadband. It is a forum I read daily and you'll see cable companies in Canada have no caps. That they are enforcing.

[Ignition]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Fascinating. Just like Cogeco, my ISP. BUT, if you dug a little deeper you would have noticed that it is there for legal reasons, and legal reasons only, and that they don't enforce their capping. I've done 155 GB so far this month, and last month I did 141 GB. I've been doing a pretty constant 50 GB + for the past four years and no complaint. So, no cap.

Comcast is in the United States, not Canada.

Rogers has no cap. The link you're giving is in error.

Telus is reselling Shaw lines. They too have never billed a person for excessive usage.

Go to www.broadbandreports.com and then go to Canadian broadband. It is a forum I read daily and you'll see cable companies in Canada have no caps. That they are enforcing.

Interesting. Spotted the 5Mbit/640kbit package with the 30GB/mth combined traffic limit - they don't enforce any of this? Seems a bit pointless doing these limits if they aren't enforcing them, though considering ntl: forum I'm not really in a position to comment....

Ouch @ 155GB this month, been a busy one for movies + games?

BTW I know Canada has it pretty good as well as being a lovely place to live in a lot of ways, that's why I'm planning on moving out there in a couple of years, did consider Toronto but Ottawa is the favourite right now. How's the tax burden? Have heard some really bad things about the taxes you pay and bit of research I've done agrees

[Jerrek]

I downloaded Deep Space Nine. [all seven seasons at 9 GB per season, plus 9-12 GB per season in uploads] And about 10 movies. Anyways, the 5 Mbps is the official speed, but they are doing 7 right now on a trail basis to see how it is going. It used to be 4 a few months ago but they are constantly upping it.

And the tax burden is rather annoying. 22% income tax up to $32,000 and then 26% or so. Not to mention the damn 15% sales tax. Gas came down a bit... Now about $0.65 a liter (0.29 or 0.28 UK pounds).

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

I downloaded Deep Space Nine. [all seven seasons at 9 GB per season, plus 9-12 GB per season in uploads] And about 10 movies. Anyways, the 5 Mbps is the official speed, but they are doing 7 right now on a trail basis to see how it is going. It used to be 4 a few months ago but they are constantly upping it.

And the tax burden is rather annoying. 22% income tax up to $32,000 and then 26% or so. Not to mention the damn 15% sales tax. Gas came down a bit... Now about $0.65 a liter (0.29 or 0.28 UK pounds).

As a student is more of your bandwidth useage during the day or late at night rather than evenings and weekends.

Assuming they have the technology to monitor these things, excessive usage is only a problem if it affects other users. If it is all at 3am when nobody else is on line then why penalise - bandwidth is a use or lose utility.