ntl:HD? and all things tech relating to NTL/virgin or unspecifyed interesting stuff

[popper]

ntl:HD? and all things tech relating to NTL/virgin or unspecifyed interesting stuff.

as per requested so as not to make the thread
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...d=1#post777805 off topic with indirectly related stuff, this thread is open.

i assume that creative is refering to mpeg4-AVC (part 10 aka H.264) rather that the older Mpeg4-ASP (part2 aka divx/xvid).

i always find bonds doom9 codec graphic very telling with regards the different options or lack of options the main codecs have.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=96059





---------- Post added at 10:46 ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 ----------

creative, what do you make of the fact NTL/Virgin are going to use cheaper options rather than the far better DVB-H long term options that the rest of the EU etc are going to use?.

http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/news.php?...ss=193&id=1788
Virgin Mobile 'to launch TV in the autumn'


Virgin Mobileââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚ÂÂ�now part of UK cable group ntlââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚ÂÂ�will reportedly launch its DAB-IP broadcast mobile TV service in conjunction with BT Movio in the autumn.
IT news site ZDnet.co.uk said Virgin had a three-month exclusivity period with BT. According to ZDnet.co.uk content partners for the mobile TV service will be announced within a month.

Handsets will be based on HTC's Trilogy and will run on Windows Mobile 5.0. ZDnet.co.uk said BT planned to announce details of a new mobile TV technology this week.

Last month the BBC and ITV said they would supply content for the technical trial of mobile television broadcast via DAB spectrum involving two approaches: Terrestrial Digital Multimedia Broadcasting (T-DMB) and Internet Protocol over DAB (DAB-IP).
Lovelace Consulting | 10.07.2006

Copy of my reply from the other thread!

Re: ntl:HD?
Quote:
Originally Posted by popper
i assume that creative is refering to mpeg4-AVC (part 10 aka H.264) rather that the older Mpeg4-ASP (part2 aka divx/xvid).

i always find bonds doom9 codec graphic very telling with regards the different options or lack of options the main codecs have.

SNIP



Broadcasters wouldn't use anything other than the Main or High Profiles at Level 3 (SD) or Level 4 (HD).
The lower Profiles don't provide Broadcast quality pictures and are usually used for lower resolution pictures (although some broadcasters don't seem that bothered about picture quality!)

Your table shows the toolsets that can be implemented as part of the Profile, but as an example I don't know of any realtime encoder which currently supports MBAFF. Should be available later this year though.

---------- Post added at 10:38 ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by popper
creative, what do you make of the fact NTL/Virgin are going to use cheaper options rather than the far better DVB-H long term options that the rest of the EU etc are going to use?.



At first glance it looks like its transmitted on the back of DAB radio. That may well limit the technology which can be used. This way they don't have to set up another network of transmitters.

[popper]

i lost the url right now, but i was reading the relation with DAB,DVB-H etc and it seems odd on anything other than short term cost saving they would pick anything other than DVB.

ill see if i can find the url later and post it here.

[popper]

creative, and the other interested readers.

regarding the restricted thread http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...805#post777805

were i said

popper said:
iv not seen anything much on DVB-C2, DVB-T2 or DVB-H2 for that matter, does anything exist yet for them?.

not that its ever likely that NTL will ever let you rent or buy a DVB-C(2) card to put your payed for smart card into and just take the .ts content directly to your monitor or HD ready display and hence get a far better quality picture without the anologue conversion that the SD STB does today.

creative said:
VC1 or Windows Media 9 codecs offer similar performance to H.264 or MPEG4 Part10 codecs.

Curently for the UK market, only the BBC and Sky are doing transmissions over satellite with MPEG4 Part 10. Level 4 (HD).

DVB C2, T2 and H2 do not exist. The DVB are not developing them. Certainly DTT and Cable have higher order modulation methods available to them (QAM256 for example for DVB C) as part of their original spec. DVB S2 allows Higher order modulation settings not specified in the DVB S spec.

apparently DVB is working on the updates (kept that quiet didnt they LOL) no mention of DVB-C2 so far though that i can find at least?.

http://www.newvideobusiness.com/content/view/77/26/
"
DVB wants new DVB-T and DVB-H standards by 2010

The DVB is preparing the ground for two major standards updates: DVB-T2 and DVB-H2, both of which are going to be closely interrelated, as the fixed terrestrial and mobile TV services they enable will be competing for the same UHF spectrum after analogue switch-off.

In each case, the standards will be designed to improve video delivery efficiencies. Although the specifications have to be defined, DVB-T2 (DVB-Terrestrial) is sure to make use of improved modulation techniques, as the new DVB-S2 (DVB-Satellite) standard has done in order to generate a 30 per cent increase in data throughput over a given bandwidth.

The DVB is not outlining efficiency targets but there is a view inside the organisation that major new standards like a new DVB-T should aim for a minimum 30 per cent improvement to make the effort worthwhile. There is an assumption that when UHF spectrum is made available after analogue switch-off, it will be extremely valuable."

"
The DVB denies that the introduction of DVB-H2 is a 'competitive' response to other mobile TV delivery standards/specifications, which have gained support over the last two years. According to MacAvock, the major focus is on DVB-T2 but because mobile services will compete for, and possibly use the same UHF spectrum, it is natural to develop the next version of DVB-H at the same time. He views the future use of UHF spectrum as a single, integrated issue , with the requirements for over-the-air HDTV, standard-definition television and TV-to-handhelds wrapped together."

like i said elsewere, it seems to me that NTL:tw/virgin use of that other cheaper for the bussiness end option their going to use will be another TVdrive white elephant ....

"
DVB-T2 is also viewed as a post switch-off technology - not a solution for existing terrestrial TV services. Analogue switch-off relies on mass consumer migration to digital terrestrial services and that needs very low-cost DVB-T set-top boxes in the market. Invariably, new technologies are considerably more expensive than old."

i dont think i could be convinced that that comment is the right way to look at it, sure the bean counters can justify it im sure, but look at what happened with most of the current DVB-T STBs, they droped in price like a stone because they didnt have the needed options or the ability to be flash upgraded, and all for a simple and cheap PFGA chip that could have been included as standard in the base developer unit that all the commercial boxs took as their product and they didnt see fit to add that option themelves.

its a simple thing in the long term, put all the needed options and the ability to updrade it in the field on all the initial units and in time the box costs will fall without loosing the future codec and user options that might be available later.

I've never really had much to do with DVB-T or H. I've worked around DVB-C in the past, DVB-S and S2 past present and future.
At the moment the big push is for IPTV stuff, this may be of interest Popper.
http://www.dvb.org/news_events/news/...ry_a/index.xml

[popper]

yea that seems cool, but lets hope some Exec with a brain and an eye on the long term future picks the AVC (aka H.264/MPEG-4 Part 10) codec rather than some accountant messing with the short term books.......

the link is 3 pages long, so heres an overview
http://www.newvideobusiness.com/content/view/74/26/
"
'Bookmarks' in this feature (just follow the section headings):
VC-1 IS SIDELINED FOR REAL-TIME BROADCASTING
DUAL-CODEC APPROACH AT TIER-1 TELCOS
CONTINUING ROLE FOR MPEG-2 -- EVEN ON IPTV
IPTV MPEG-2/AVC MIGRATIONS
SATELLITE ADOPTS AVC FOR HDTV
CABLE HAS LESS NEED FOR ADVANCED CODING
ADVANCED COMPRESSION ON DIGITAL TERRESTRIAL
DTT REMAINS LARGELY MPEG-2
AVC HALVING BIT RATES
SWEET SPOT FOR HDTV IS 6-7.5Mbps
IPTV NEEDS TWO SIMULTANEOUS HD STREAMS
SATELLITE PUTS A PREMIUM ON PICTURE QUALITY
HDTV COULD BE POSSIBLE "IN 3-3.5Mbps"
HDTV BECOMING THE NEW STANDARD-DEFINITION?
TANDBERG TELEVISION'S NEW COMPRESSION ENGINE
TIER-1 QUALITY HDTV ONTO DENSE TELCO PLATFORMS
FOUR HD, FOUR SD AND FOUR PIP FROM 1RU
HARMONIC'S NEW SD AND HD ENCODING PLATFORMS
FOUR CHANNELS OF HDTV FROM 1RU
HARMONIC MOVES AWAY FROM MPEG-2/AVC PLATFORMS
"STILL A NEED FOR MPEG-2/AVC PLATFORMS"
DEBATE ABOUT IMPORTANCE OF DENSITY
BUT NEAR-CONSENSUS ABOUT VC-1
KEY DEPLOYMENTS: WHO USES WHO?
SCOPUS FINALISING HD PLATFORM"

NTL:tw accountant said *| LOL
"A spokesman says, “We are using MPEG-2 because we can."
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"
AVC HALVING BIT RATES
The good news for operators on all platforms is that AVC is living up to its hype and halving bit rates compared to MPEG-2.

The fastest gains appear to be for high-definition, where the world’s leading encoder vendors have set their sights over the last 24 months.

So, from bit rates of up to 20Mbps for HDTV on MPEG-2 a couple of years ago, like-for-like HD services plummeted to around 8Mbps on leading-edge advanced encoders this time last year.

By IBC (Amsterdam exhibition) this September, the figures will be 6-8Mbps depending on content, with the most bullish predictions being for sub-6Mbps for hard-to-encode content like sports."

"
Depending on who you talk to, the so-called ‘sweet spot’ for HDTV is between 6Mbps and 7.5Mbps.

Carl Furgusson, VP product management at TANDBERG Television, comments: “We are getting to the point where we can get to around 6Mbps for HDTV with top quality pictures and with statistical multiplexing you can get between 6-8 satellite services onto a 36Mbps transponder.”

In fact, TANDBERG claims that with its latest encoder it can deliver more than eight channels of full-resolution HDTV on a 36MHz transponder using DVB-S2 (the latest satellite transmission standard) and 8PSK."

notice thats Mpeg-2 NOT HD Mpeg-2
"HDTV COULD BE POSSIBLE "IN 3-3.5Mbps"
Harmonic is also pushing the boundaries of bit rate reduction, claiming sub-6Mbps for best-quality HDTV sports pictures and as little as 3-3.5Mbps for less demanding content - which is matching some MPEG-2 services."

"TANDBERG TELEVISION'S NEW COMPRESSION ENGINE
TANDBERG Television is using IBC to unveil its new ICE3 (Intelligent Compression Engine), which is the underlying technology for the push towards 6Mbps HD.

The improvements in bit rates have been possible on the back of improved motion estimation, single-slice video processing, dedicated processing for low resolution encoding of PiP services, multi-pass analysis and enhanced video pre-processing.

ICE3 is being used on the new EN8030 AVC standard-definition encoder and the EN8090 AVC HD/SD encoder.

Effectively, these are the next-generation to the current EN5930 (SD) and EN5990 (HD) encoders for AVC but besides better bit rate reduction, they also deliver more outputs.

The EN8090, for example, will take a single HD input and generate a full-resolution HDTV channel, a secondary version of that main channel in full standard-definition, and a third ‘micro’ channel for use in PiP, mosaic and multi-view applications."

"FOUR HD, FOUR SD AND FOUR PIP FROM 1RU
As a result, the Plex systems can output up to 12 services from a single HD input within a 1RU form factor: four full-resolution HD, four secondaries up to full SD and four low-res channels for PiP type applications. For the telco market - which is more comfortable than the broadcast industry with high-density, multi-function platforms - this represents a notable advance."

The 8090 is a big improvement over the older model. Anyone see pictures from it at IBC?

[popper]

http://informitv.com/articles/2006/1...isionforesees/
"
13 October 2006
« Prev | Index

BT Vision foresees phased launch for broadband video

BT Vision, the long-awaited video service from the UK telecommunications company, will soft launch to a limited number of existing broadband subscribers next month, with a full marketing push and its complete programming line-up now not expected until next spring.


BT is denying that it amounts a delay in the launch, which it has always promised to deliver before the end of the year.

The service is currently being used by a limited number of BT employees prior to being seen by the public.

The company is adopting a cautious approach with what it describes as a “sensible” rollout to avoid disappointing customers and initially it will not have “all the bells and whistles”.

Speaking at the Streaming Media Europe conference in London, Richard Griffiths, technology strategy director for BT Retail TV Services, gave a few insights into the broadband video plans, while stressing the difficulties of delivering video over the existing BT network.

As a result of the structural separation of the national telecommunications company into separate wholesale and retail divisions, the consumer arm is required by regulation to acquire services from its parent on equivalent terms to other broadband resellers.

The BT network was simply not designed to deliver video, and does not support multicasting, making it uneconomic to distribute live television channels.

For this reason, the BT Vision service will combine broadcast programming delivered over the air through digital terrestrial television in conjunction with broadband video-on-demand services.

Essentially, it will provide an easy-to-use dual-tuner personal video recorder for Freeview channels, with a network connection that links to a home hub broadband gateway device.

BT Wholesale has developed an application driven quality of service mechanism, ADQ, which will be productised as ‘Advanced Services’ allowing the creation of a temporary fixed bandwidth pipe over a broadband connection.

BT Vision is planning to use a 1.5Mbps data stream to deliver video-on-demand services, significantly less then some other providers, even using MPEG-4 H.264 compression, to ensure that it can provide the widest coverage over its existing broadband network. It remains to be seen how the quality of the video will compare to current broadcast services.

Richard Griffiths revealed that BT Vision will use its own content delivery network, with nodes sited at ten locations around the UK, with 3 or 4 in London. “We’ve done the business and mathematical modelling,” he said. “We are very confident that our scaling and provisioning will be able to meet the anticipated demand.”

BT is planning to invest billions in a next-generation network known as 21CN, based on internet protocols, which will support multicasting. “Maybe we’ll look at multicast channels with 2CN,” said Richard, suggesting that live television could be carried over the network in the future.

BT first acknowledged plans for a broadband video service in July 2004, but its ambitions in this area go back considerably further. As date for the full launch of the BT Vision service slips into next year, the broadband access market is becoming increasingly competitive.

BSkyB, with its acquisition of Easynet, is building out its own unbundled broadband network. Tiscali has acquired Video Networks, provider of the London-based HomeChoice service with a view to a possible national roll-out. These and other operators are all potentially able to compete directly with BT Vision.

Meanwhile, British broadcasters are preparing their own broadband video services. The BBC is seeking approval for its iPlayer application, but it seems the launch schedule for this has also been put back again, pending a regulatory market impact assessment.

In the interim, ITV plans to launch its own online video service and has appointed renowned interactive design agency Schematic to provide the interface. Channel 4, which is already experimenting with live streaming and downloads, plans to have its service in place by the end of the year.
www.btvision.bt.com

BT, Broadband, IPTV, Platforms, VOD"

hmm,
"The following errors occurred when this message was submitted:

1. The title that you have entered is too long (87 characters). Please shorten it to 85 characters long.

"
the title was fine when i made it originally so why am i getting this now?.

apparently you now need to enter advanced mode and take out the re: it adds automaticly
so you can post your reply.

i take it the BBoard code has been updated and doesnt like the extra txt added now, wereas people could reply before.

[popper]

one more step down the HD road, if this ever makes it to commercial availablity then the future DVB-H might get it in its handsets.

remember 'high definition' does not equate to BIG screens.

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadge...hes-208080.php

"Sanyo Develops Smallest HD Display: 7.1 Inches
Sanyo has developed what they claim to be the world' smallest high definition (1920x1080) display. Coming in at 7.1 inches, the display, which is an LCD, is designed and optimized for mobile devices.

To that end, the display's innards are designed to keep power consumption as low as possible. In other small display news, Sanyo has also developed a 2.6-inch display that supports up to XGA resolution, or 1024x768.

Expect to eventually see this in cellphones. Smaller displays, higher resolutions... what more could you want? (Unless you're a hippie and want peace or something.) – Nicholas Deleon"

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/high%20definition/

[popper]

thought i'd resurect my general tech thread and add the latest industry comments in relation to this DVB-H.

Originally Posted by popper

ntl:HD? and all things tech relating to NTL/virgin or unspecifyed interesting stuff.

creative, what do you make of the fact NTL/Virgin are going to use cheaper options rather than the far better DVB-H long term options that the rest of the EU etc are going to use?.

http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/news.php?...ss=193&id=1788
Virgin Mobile 'to launch TV in the autumn'


Virgin Mobileââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚ÂÂ�now part of UK cable group ntlââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚ÂÂ�will reportedly launch its DAB-IP broadcast mobile TV service in conjunction with BT Movio in the autumn.
IT news site ZDnet.co.uk said Virgin had a three-month exclusivity period with BT. According to ZDnet.co.uk content partners for the mobile TV service will be announced within a month.

Handsets will be based on HTC's Trilogy and will run on Windows Mobile 5.0. ZDnet.co.uk said BT planned to announce details of a new mobile TV technology this week.

Last month the BBC and ITV said they would supply content for the technical trial of mobile television broadcast via DAB spectrum involving two approaches: Terrestrial Digital Multimedia Broadcasting (T-DMB) and Internet Protocol over DAB (DAB-IP).
Lovelace Consulting | 10.07.2006

http://www.vnu.co.uk/vnunet/news/218...ng-wrong-horse
Britain backing 'wrong' mobile TV standard
"
Iain Thomson, vnunet.com 19 Mar 2007

ADVERTISEMENT

European Union commissioner Viviane Reding has issued a stark warning over the future of mobile TV to delegates at CeBIT.

Europe needs to agree a common standard for broadcast mobile TV, according to Reding, who hinted strongly that the standard should be DVB-H.

This leaves some UK companies backing the wrong horse, since early services by Virgin Mobile are using the DAB standard.

"We are too slow and too uncoordinated to create the right conditions for a quick take-up of mobile TV on a large scale in Europe," said Reding.

"I urge member states to act quickly on this issue as we cannot afford any delays.

One thing is clear: without at least some coordination at European level, market fragmentation will prevent a successful take-up of mobile TV in Europe."

Reding went on to point out that 17 countries, including Britain, offer DVB-H services and that it is a widely recognised open standard.

The commissioner said that she is prepared to give "strong support" to standardised European solutions such as DVB-H.

DVB-H is one of the highest quality standards on offer, and can carry more channels at higher quality than DAB. But it uses spectrum already occupied by analogue TV signals, whereas DAB can use existing digital radio frequencies.

Nokia has already announced that it will only be making DVB-H handsets, a decision branded "ridiculous" by one British telco but supported by analysts and defended by other big names in the industry such as Intel and Motorola.

At stake is a potential market worth $30bn, according to analysts.
"I am convinced today more than ever that we need a common European approach to set conditions for a rapid and wide deployment of mobile TV," said Reding. " It is now time to act."
See also: "