10 meg unlimited?

[grubbymitts]

with ADSL suppliers they have to buy bandwidth from BT as the main carrier and then charge their customers to cover that as well as make a profit. So something like Plusnet's usage allowance is going to pop up alot on what tend to be the smaller ADSL suppliers. NTL have their own network so are not under the same constraints. I hope that traffic shaping will be done, if it is done, sensibly. If my download drops to 1mb or 1.5mb between 6 and 12 then fine (well, not really) but any lower and that's just taking the mickey. I am not a 24/7 max bandwidth downloader.

Also, what happens when people start wanting to watch programs, legally, via the net? Most people work 9-5 and will settle in front of the PC between 6 and 10 (this is how it would work in my house) - traffic shaping these connections would result in choppy video. People who don't understand what is going on will not realise that it is traffic shaping and think that their NTL connection is crud. They may leave in their droves to other providers whilst the heavy downloaders on the network just leave their PCs on 24/7 and suffer all of 42hrs out of 168 where their connection drops speed. Not much of a business plan, that.

[DaggaDagga]

I don't see the problem myself. The more you use it, the slower it gets. Sounds utterly fair.

Unlimited, uncapped and unshaped would obviously be preferable, but this only works if everyone is reasonable. We already know that not everyone is.

In reality, for everyone except the leechers, your connection will be faster. This is because the DVD downloaders in your neighbourhood will have switched to another ISP within a couple of months. If you download a DVD every now and then it will download at full speed. If you exceed a usage allowance then your speed gets throttled, and you get an email to tell you about this, and why it's happened.

I'd only be happy with this if the throttling is gradual, i.e. 10Mbps > 9 > 8 etc, not 10Mbps > 100Kbps. As long as the lowest throttled speed will still be suitable for browsing, shopping etc then that's fine.

EDIT: broadband TV is still a problem, as grubbymitts says. NTL would need a big infrastructure upgrade within a year or two if they're gonna keep up, either with or without shaping.

[Hans Gruber]

I can't see NTL worrying about people trying to watch TV over the internet, it would be taking customers away from their service.

I mean worry if people are struggling to do it, they would be worried if people cancelled the NTL TV service for an alternative internet based service.

(I'm sure that makes no sense :p)

[etccarmageddon]

Originally Posted by grubbymitts

..Also, what happens when people start wanting to watch programs, legally, via the net? Most people work 9-5 and will settle in front of the PC between 6 and 10 (this is how it would work in my house) - traffic shaping these connections would result in choppy video...

generally I'd expect you to download to a pvr type of setup where the program is mostly buffered before you watch it.

http://www.tvmax.co.uk

[Chrysalis]

Its possible they may shape by inspecting headers and not just blanket across ports but then if people start encrypting their p2p they would probably just shape anything above 1024 as p2p and a few hundred ports below 1024 as well. People in congested areas like myself may actually benefit from shaping in terms of browsing and as other stuff such as ftp is slow anyway the shaping may or may not be worse.

Those of you in areas which dont have much contention will probably be affected more by shaping.

[jtwn]

If we really are talking about throttling, it most likely is going to be targetting Bittorrent considering how much of ntl's network it takes up.

Just like Rogers and just like how people are getting round it.

Originally Posted by jtwn

If we really are talking about throttling, it most likely is going to be targetting Bittorrent considering how much of ntl's network it takes up.

Just like Rogers and just like how people are getting round it.

You mean stuff like this

http://d.sankey.ca/blog/1902/rogers-...erally-sucking

http://www.rbua.org/board/viewthread.php?TID=5571&FID=1

[TrancerSteve]

Yeah nice one NTL...A very tight approach NTL at temporarily improving network congestion problems by spending the least amount of money possbile. All this will do is cover up how bad their network is for a little while. Fear not though.. When on demand TV via the net comes about NTL will get a swift kick up it's bum!... Just shocking really... that theres still no word on major hardware updates that are so needed for NTL's network.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by jtwn

If we really are talking about throttling, it most likely is going to be targetting Bittorrent considering how much of ntl's network it takes up.

Why?

[Derek]

Originally Posted by TrancerSteve

Yeah nice one NTL...A very tight approach NTL at temporarily improving network congestion problems by spending the least amount of money possbile. All this will do is cover up how bad their network is for a little while. Fear not though.. When on demand TV via the net comes about NTL will get a swift kick up it's bum!... Just shocking really... that theres still no word on major hardware updates that are so needed for NTL's network.

*Sigh*

So have any of the ADSL providers introduced capping or traffic shaping? How about other ISP's in other parts of the world?

At the end of the day you cannot expect Ntl or Telewest to throw huge amounts of money at their networks to ensure everyone can download vast amounts of data, chat for hours on Voip calls and stream enough video to make you go blind.

Like it or not Ntl/Telewest are NOT specialist ISP's who will provide a clean, uniterrupted internet feed. They are mass-market providers and they will react to what they feel the majority wants. If that involves shaping traffic to reduce P2P to a trickle then thats what they will do.

Originally Posted by dezo

*Sigh*

So have any of the ADSL providers introduced capping or traffic shaping? How about other Isps in other parts of the world?

At the end of the day you cannot expect Ntl or Telewest to throw huge amounts of money at their networks to ensure everyone can download vast amounts of data, chat for hours on Voip calls and stream enough video to make you go blind.

Like it or not Ntl/Telewest are NOT specialist Isps who will provide a clean, uninterrupted internet feed. They are mass-market providers and they will react to what they feel the majority wants. If that involves shaping traffic to reduce P2P to a trickle then that's what they will do.

Yes other providers do it and they admit to it. So have NTL admitted to any of this or will they admit to any of this. At the end of the day i pay at the moment to NTL £24.99 for a unlimited connection "check here for ntl advert on there website" No where does it say Unlimited connection but we traffic shape. How can a traffic shaped service designed to limit you download capability be a unlimited service ? or am i missing some great NTL logic here ?

[Derek]

Originally Posted by unlimited

How can a traffic shaped service designed to limit you download capability be a unlimited service ? or am i missing some great NTL logic here ?

Personally speaking I almost always get upwards of 7.5/8.5 Mbps at all times of day and night so I'm quite happy. I don't see any affects of slowdown, congestion or shaping.

*If* Ntl are bringing in traffic shaping I'm sure they will announce it when it affects the majority of customers.

Right now I'd probably guess they are testing any hardware etc. before rolling it out across the whole network.

[TrancerSteve]

Originally Posted by dezzo

*Sigh*

So have any of the ADSL providers introduced capping or traffic shaping? How about other ISP's in other parts of the world?

At the end of the day you cannot expect Ntl or Telewest to throw huge amounts of money at their networks to ensure everyone can download vast amounts of data, chat for hours on Voip calls and stream enough video to make you go blind.

Like it or not Ntl/Telewest are NOT specialist ISP's who will provide a clean, uniterrupted internet feed. They are mass-market providers and they will react to what they feel the majority wants. If that involves shaping traffic to reduce P2P to a trickle then thats what they will do.

No sighing please .

NTL knows that since the 10meg upgrades their network can't deliver. This is not even local congestion aswell, but going right up to their routers that direct traffic to peering companies. Ive never before seen such fluctuating speeds with an ISP before. Sure they don't promise it to be 100% stable all of the time, its not a leased line we have by any means!.. But I expect it to perform in a certain margin most of the time... im sure others do too.

My experience with ADSL when it comes to congestion is its got the finger on the pulse. With keeping an eye on network performance and installing new DSLAMs when needed... Id like to know what hardware changes/upgrades NTL are doing instead of the cheap and nasty route of rolling out software to shape traffic.

Boo hiss at cutting corner methods... but I guess we can't have it all, especially with these fast (when they want to be!) speeds.

Originally Posted by dezo

Personally speaking I almost always get upwards of 7.5/8.5 Mbps at all times of day and night so I'm quite happy. I don't see any affects of slowdown, congestion or shaping.

*If* Ntl are bringing in traffic shaping I'm sure they will announce it when it affects the majority of customers.

Right now I'd probably guess they are testing any hardware etc. before rolling it out across the whole network.

Well as long as your happy that's ok. Meanwhile those that have on off connections, On off proxy's, Less that 3 meg on so called 10 meg connections. They can at least sleep well in the knowledge you are happy.

Meanwhile NTL go ahead with buying up other companies and giving bonus's to one half of there company and because of that there is no money to fix there network. So what have we the paying customer got from NTL a service going down the pan.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by unlimited

Well as long as your happy thats ok. They can at least sleep well in the knowledge you are happy.

I'm glad you see it my way.