Muslims to march in London

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Extradite them to where? A lot of the hotheads who are going on these marches were born here and are as British as you or I.

In which case you strip them of their citizenship for a set period.

[Chrysalis]

Tell them they have x amount of days to leave or face imprisonment. Where they go wouldnt be our problem.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

In which case you strip them of their citizenship for a set period.

How would you do that? Would you be happy for such a punishment to exist for a British citizen who converted to Islam but whose ancestry has been in this country for centuries?

[basa]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Tell them they have x amount of days to leave or face imprisonment. Where they go wouldnt be our problem.

Now we are fantasising extradition / repatriation whatever ain't gonna happen

The best / only thing we can do is prosecute and punish as appropriate (probably a slap on the wrist and a lifetimes free housing !! )

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

I agree with what Xaccers says extradite them, may sound mean but end of the day the country has laws and anyone living here I would expect to be respectful of its traditions and values. I don't mark all muslims with the same brush, the ones who disagree with the comments in the protests and are peaceful I am happy for them to live here.

How would you police that - are you proposing the establishment of some sort of "thought police"?

Would you extradite all criminals who break the law and show disrespect for Britain's traditions and values - or just those pesky swarthy skinned ones?

[Chrysalis]

Now you brought up nationality I will bring an interesting point up.

I think been british nationality and having citizenship are 2 different things. Sport is a good way to prove this, you might have a football player born here who has a greek dad and english mother he fails to get into the england team so decides to play for greece and qualifies because his dad was greek. Do you think all these protesters see themselves as british? if this country was invaded tommorow do you think they would defend it or immigrate to another easy country? this is how I am more british then these morons they would get out and go to a peaceful country I would stay and defend my country until I die, my family tree is british as far ip as I can see it. This makes me more british.

---------- Post added at 15:28 ---------- Previous post was at 15:27 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

How would you police that - are you proposing the establishment of some sort of "thought police"?

Would you extradite all criminals who break the law and show disrespect for Britain's traditions and values - or just those pesky swarthy skinned ones?

You can extradite someone no matter what colour their skin is and it would apply to those promoting terrorism, wether you white brown or black.

Originally Posted by Chris T

Extradite them to where?

Quite...

Originally Posted by Chris T

A lot of the hotheads who are going on these marches were born here and are as British as you or I.

If that was the case, then I don't think they'd be doing/saying what they are.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

Since a poll is supposed to be a measure of the section of the population targetted (in this case Muslims) this result is apparently quite indicative of the whole Muslim population of the UK.

So no, it is not the majority of UK Muslims who want sharia law, but apparently a large percentage of them would. And I would consider 40% a pretty significant proportion. (Since the UK has an electoral system where 40% of the population can actually elect a government...)
As you point out, that was in the Sun...

I disagree. Such a small sample population cannot represent the views of Muslims in the UK. You're talking of less than 1% of the UK muslim population. If I took 100 people from the streets (all white and english) and 40% when questioned said they were racist, would it make the majority of white english people racist?

As for 40% of the UK population being able to elct a governemt, ur not telling me only 500 people voted are you? The comparision is not valid.

And yes the statements I printed were in the Sun. Read by millions of people of which the majority are said to believe everything they read. Thats why its not good.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

This makes me more british.

.

And I rest my case.

[Ramrod]

Enough of this talk of extraditing 'them'. 'They' are British, whether we like it or not, whether they feel like they are or not. They cannot be sent 'home' because even if they don't feel like they are British/English and despise everything that being western stands for, they don't have anywhere else to go.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

If I took 100 people from the streets (all white and english) and 40% when questioned said they were racist, would it make the majority of white english people racist?

That sample would be too small. But yes, if you got a 40% response from a suitable sample group, then you might be able to infer that.

Obviously, if your 'random' sample is taken as people leave a BNP rally, then it would no longer be representative.

Try finding out a bit more about how polls are done. The ICM results, as they stand, do suggest that a 40% 'minority' of British Muslims would welcome sharia law.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

As for 40% of the UK population being able to elct a governemt, ur not telling me only 500 people voted are you? The comparision is not valid.

I'm not saying only 500 voted, but I AM saying that with only 40% of the vote of all the voting adults in the UK it IS possible to win a general election - in fact, it has happened in recent years.

You're confusing your numbers.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

And yes the statements I printed were in the Sun. Read by millions of people of which the majority are said to believe everything they read. Thats why its not good.

But the Sun isn't quite a white anti-muslim supremacist paper, so it's not nearly as worrying as the poll results themselves.

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:49 ----------

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Enough of this talk of extraditing 'them'.

Those comments have discredited the people that made them, since they clearly haven't got a grasp of the basics, never mind anything more complicated.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

'They' are British, whether we like it or not, whether they feel like they are or not.

British Muslims are muslims who were born into British citizenship. Ergo, their nationality is British. If any other country were to 'deport' them, they'd end up here.

We could only 'extradite' them is they committed a crime in another country and that country requested their extradition. And I suspect that our judicial system would not extradite to any of the countries that some of the posters would like to have 'them' sent back to.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

They cannot be sent 'home' because even if they don't feel like they are British/English and despise everything that being western stands for, they don't have anywhere else to go.

That's not entirely true...

If they don't like it here, no-one is keeping them here. They're free to travel. They could even emigrate to <whatever muslim country> if they felt they'd be more at home there.

The truth is, I think some of 'them' would have a bit of a culture shock if they did - they'd find that it's nothing like Britain, and they'd probably start wishing that they'd stayed and appreciated this country better.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Chris T

How would you do that? Would you be happy for such a punishment to exist for a British citizen who converted to Islam but whose ancestry has been in this country for centuries?

This has nothing to do with Islam (as I'm sure you're not saying attacking Britain is a pre-requisite to being a muslim)

I'm talking about anyone who is a british citizen and attacks this country.
Not in a "bloody england, always raining, the busses are never on time" sort of way which, I'm sure was pointed out in the What it is to be British thread is actually something quite stereotypically british.
I'm talking about what could be called pettit treason.
People who abuse the benefit system for instance, wether through religous/political malice, or bone idleness, have them lose their citizenship for a while so that they have to work to survive.
Surely that is better than locking them up where it costs the state even more money?

If someone plots to overthrow the monarchy or goverment, that is treason.
If someone plots to attack fellow brits in a terrorist manor, or attempt to incite other people to do so, then they are no longer british and should have their status changed accordingly.
Likewise, someone in the army who abuses prisoners or civilians (such as the americans in abu grahb), this is behaviour unbecoming to a British citizen and again, as such should have their status changed to reflect this.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

This has nothing to do with Islam (as I'm sure you're not saying attacking Britain is a pre-requisite to being a muslim)

I'm talking about anyone who is a british citizen and attacks this country.
Not in a "bloody england, always raining, the busses are never on time" sort of way which, I'm sure was pointed out in the What it is to be British thread is actually something quite stereotypically british.
I'm talking about what could be called pettit treason.
People who abuse the benefit system for instance, wether through religous/political malice, or bone idleness, have them lose their citizenship for a while so that they have to work to survive.
Surely that is better than locking them up where it costs the state even more money?

If someone plots to overthrow the monarchy or goverment, that is treason.
If someone plots to attack fellow brits in a terrorist manor, or attempt to incite other people to do so, then they are no longer british and should have their status changed accordingly.
Likewise, someone in the army who abuses prisoners or civilians (such as the americans in abu grahb), this is behaviour unbecoming to a British citizen and again, as such should have their status changed to reflect this.

Well if you're ever thinking of campaigning for PM and tahts your manifesto, you'll certainly have my vote

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

People who abuse the benefit system for instance, wether through religous/political malice, or bone idleness, have them lose their citizenship for a while so that they have to work to survive.

Whilst this is off topic and I'm sure would be worthy of a thread in itself, I disagree that everyone who abuses the benefit systems should have their citizenship removed. I'm not saying to abuse the system is right or advisable but there are occasions where someone who is just scraping by might do that sort of thing to feed their family. Again I stress I'm not saying to 'fiddle the social' is ever right but to take away someone's citizenship just because their financial status means they needed to feed their children through unlawful means doesn't seem fair as a blanket rule.

However the ones who are blatantly milking the system to fund their lifestyle, that's a different matter IMO.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Russ D

Whilst this is off topic and I'm sure would be worthy of a thread in itself, I disagree that everyone who abuses the benefit systems should have their citizenship removed. I'm not saying to abuse the system is right or advisable but there are occasions where someone who is just scraping by might do that sort of thing to feed their family. Again I stress I'm not saying to 'fiddle the social' is ever right but to take away someone's citizenship just because their financial status means they needed to feed their children through unlawful means doesn't seem fair as a blanket rule.

Totally agree, removal of citizenship, just as with imprisonment should not be automatic on conviction to cater for such cases which are minor or accidental.

Originally Posted by Russ D

However the ones who are blatantly milking the system to fund their lifestyle, that's a different matter IMO.

And there is a minority of muslims who deliberately avoid paying tax and scrounge off the state as a form of attack, draining its resources and encouraging other muslims to do the same.
Incidently, a lot of this minority are former asylum seekers, coming here because they claim to be under threat from their own countries.


I have a strong view on what it is to be british, or rather what someone who is british should not do, and I'm proud to be british.
I also, thanks to my experiences, have a strong view on what it is to be muslim.
There is no reason why someone who is a british muslim should do anything which tarnishes their britishness for the sake of their religion.