smoking and the pub

[fireman328]

Originally Posted by Russ D

Plus the part you continuously neglect to mention, they did not get the financial aid and promotion which other businesses have recieved to help them succeed.

What financial aid and promotion were they entitled to ?
A business thrives or fails on its' product or services, if they are not what the customer wants the business goes into liquidation.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by fireman328

What financial aid and promotion were they entitled to ?
A business thrives or fails on its' product or services, if they are not what the customer wants the business goes into liquidation.

Have you not heard of start-up grants, financial aid etc?

The aid and promotion is a feature set up by the City and Borough of Swansea Council (and funded by the Welsh Assembly) to help business which can demonstrate they are suffering hardship through increased or unfair competition. It's usually granted to small cornershops when a large supermarket arrives on their doorstep, that sort of thing.

[clarie]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Yes, hence some of the health issues which you denied.

OMG Get over it!! What you're saying isn't even true!!!

Originally Posted by Xaccers

However, if my neighbour is not breaking any laws, it is up to me, as the person who is responsible for my health, to take steps to reduce the damage to a level which is acceptable to me, such as insulating the walls, wearing earplugs, moving house, installing double glazing etc.

So you wouldn't consider going round and asking if they would turn it down?

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Repeating "it's a bad example" won't make it a bad example Clarie, I've given several reasons as to why it is a good example.

It was successful as a smoking establishment.
It failed as a non-smoking establishment, despite having the monopoly on non-smoking establishments in Wind Road.
Therefore if there was a mass demand for non-smoking pubs, it would have had sufficient numbers of customers to survive, after all, it managed while being a smoking establishment, and you claim that would mean it was catering to a minority.

Have you read the above posts on this issue? You may need to re-read them. The main issues are:
a) People have habits as regards where they go and drink. One bar is not likely to change this immediately.
b) We do not know that the only reason the pub failed was due to the non-smoking policy.
c) You cannot rely on the example of one bar out of thousands.
d) As has already been said repeatedly in this thread, until a country-wide ban on smoking is introduced in bars, or even those that serve food, it is not possible to gauge how the British public will react. It is highly unlikely that the habits of the non-smokers who choose not to go to pubs because of the smoky atmosphere are going to suddenly start going out because one bar on a busy street of bars has introduced a non-smoking policy.
c) My issue has never been with profits, nor has it been with what people want, per se. As has been said many times, currently the pub going majority are smokers, but a widespread ban could well change this. The fact that one bar failed does not negate this.
d) One of the reasons for the call for a ban on smoking in public places is that it could encourage people to quit. Again, one bar will not have this effect alone.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by clarie

OMG Get over it!! What you're saying isn't even true!!!

Hey, you're the one who denied it.

Originally Posted by clarie

So you wouldn't consider going round and asking if they would turn it down?

Yes, but they are free to say no, just as if you wanted, you could ask a landlord to make your local a smoke free enviroment, and they are free to say no.

Originally Posted by clarie

Have you read the above posts on this issue? You may need to re-read them. The main issues are:
a) People have habits as regards where they go and drink. One bar is not likely to change this immediately.
b) We do not know that the only reason the pub failed was due to the non-smoking policy.
c) You cannot rely on the example of one bar out of thousands.
d) As has already been said repeatedly in this thread, until a country-wide ban on smoking is introduced in bars, or even those that serve food, it is not possible to gauge how the British public will react. It is highly unlikely that the habits of the non-smokers who choose not to go to pubs because of the smoky atmosphere are going to suddenly start going out because one bar on a busy street of bars has introduced a non-smoking policy.
c) My issue has never been with profits, nor has it been with what people want, per se. As has been said many times, currently the pub going majority are smokers, but a widespread ban could well change this. The fact that one bar failed does not negate this.
d) One of the reasons for the call for a ban on smoking in public places is that it could encourage people to quit. Again, one bar will not have this effect alone.

a) What about the habbits of the "majority" non-smokers who avoid pubs because of the smoke? Surely if you supply them with a non-smoking pub, which you claim there are plenty of customers just waiting for the oppertunity to frequent, then such a place in a sea of smoking pubs is going to be raking it in, unless of course the majority of people who go to pubs in that area accept the risks of passive smoking and go to smoking pubs, but then, that would mean your assertion was wrong.
b) Smoking: bar is successful. Introduces non-smoking policy: bar is unsuccessful even though from what you've said, there should have been loads of people rushing to drink there. Smoking again: bar is successful again.
c) A widespread ban is not on the cards.
d) You do know there is a difference between "encourage" and "coerce" don't you?

[clarie]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Hey, you're the one who denied it.

Ok now I know you're taking the ****

Originally Posted by Xaccers

a) What about the habbits of the "majority" non-smokers who avoid pubs because of the smoke? Surely if you supply them with a non-smoking pub, which you claim there are plenty of customers just waiting for the oppertunity to frequent, then such a place in a sea of smoking pubs is going to be raking it in, unless of course the majority of people who go to pubs in that area accept the risks of passive smoking and go to smoking pubs, but then, that would mean your assertion was wrong.

Please see point d in my post.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

d) You do know there is a difference between "encourage" and "coerce" don't you?

Yes, I do. You are aware that smoking is bad for you aren't you? And that even if the government try to coerce people into quitting it will not be compulsary? But that quitting is actually a good thing?

[fireman328]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Not in the case of aircraft. Smoking here is banned by law. What about your free choice to light up on the way to Marbella?

Not true, If you charter a complete aircraft for a group trip to somewhere, as the hirer you can determine the terms and conditions of that trip.
I went on a jolly from Biggin Hill to Le Touquet with a small group of mainly smokers in the summer.
The standard departure and landing ban on smoking applied but when the NO SMOKING lights were extinguished you could smoke or not smoke as you liked.

A wonderful time was had by all and the cabin was virtually smoke free due to the air handling units. Only downside was I lost money in the Casino, food was wonderful.

[clarie]

Originally Posted by fireman328

Not true, If you charter a complete aircraft for a group trip to somewhere, as the hirer you can determine the terms and conditions of that trip.

Sounds similar to a private party and so not a public place.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by clarie

Please see point d in my post.

a) peoples' drinking habits.
d) ban encouraging people to quit smoking
Ok you've totally lost me.

Originally Posted by clarie

Yes, I do. You are aware that smoking is bad for you aren't you? And that even if the government try to coerce people into quitting it will not be compulsary? But that quitting is actually a good thing?

Are you aware that smoking is a legal activity?
Are you aware that you have a responsibility to protect yourself from known health risks?
__________________

Originally Posted by clarie

Sounds similar to a private party and so not a public place.

No aircraft is a public place anyway.

Talking about this, I still don't think I've seen a reply from you on private members clubs, where the members will either be denied food, or will have to stand outside to smoke, even though everyone who is there finds smoking acceptable.

[clarie]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Ok you've totally lost me.

My point d in post 1068 was a response to what you were saying here:

a) What about the habbits of the "majority" non-smokers who avoid pubs because of the smoke? Surely if you supply them with a non-smoking pub, which you claim there are plenty of customers just waiting for the oppertunity to frequent, then such a place in a sea of smoking pubs is going to be raking it in, unless of course the majority of people who go to pubs in that area accept the risks of passive smoking and go to smoking pubs, but then, that would mean your assertion was wrong.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Are you aware that smoking is a legal activity?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

No aircraft is a public place anyway.

And yet it is a method of transport for the general public.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by clarie

My point d in post 1068 was a response to what you were saying here:

I made that point after 1068. Can I borrow your time machine please? I promise to share my lottery winnings with you

And yet it is a method of transport for the general public.

Try just walking on a plane because you're a member of the general public and see how close you get.
Also, and aeroplane is a vehicle, not a place or building.

[clarie]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

I made that point after 1068. Can I borrow your time machine please? I promise to share my lottery winnings with you

I know you did. Just thought I would spare myself the time of writing it all out again by just referring you to what I had already said.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Try just walking on a plane because you're a member of the general public and see how close you get.
Also, and aeroplane is a vehicle, not a place or building.

Not sure what point you're trying to make to be honest.

[SlackDad]

Found this which I thought was worth posting re the cultural effects of smoking bans in other countries. http://www.sundayherald.com/46058


I especially liked the Irish experience where a whole new sub-culture appears to be emerging. The ban seems like good news for any singletons out there.

In Dublin, Paul Trainerââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s livelihood depends on him being sociable. As publishing manager of the Dubliner magazine, he has to review bars and restaurants, go to gigs and check out nightclubs. Cue the violins you might think, but since the smoking ban has come in, his experiences of trawling Dublinââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s backstreets for cool new things has changed.

†œPeople are heading †˜out for a fagââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢ who donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t even smoke †“ smoking corners have become pick-up points because you stand and chat, ask for a light, moan about the weather †¦ even the health minister Michael Martin has joked about the pulling potential of smoking.

†œYou see whole collections of ghost tables of half-drunk pints that have been abandoned, or with a coaster over the top. If a group of six people go out, half of whom are smokers, it makes for a very disjointed night †“ the other three are left watching the jackets and the drinks for hours at a time.ââ‚ƚ¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ�

Roberta Gray, a columnist for the Sunday Tribune, and a woman who doesnââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t bat an eyelid about the label †œgirl about townââ‚ ¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ� said those who have previously been unsuccessful at flirting can now do well, armed with a cigarette.

†œNever in my life did I think I would say this, but I wish I smoked sometimes. My friends have the best time standing outside flirting and smoking †“ itââ‚ ¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s a whole subculture of meeting people that Iâ₠¬ÃƒÆ’¢â€žÂ¢m just not involved in because I donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t smoke.ââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÂ� She believes the †œIâà ¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€Š¾Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¢m freezing but do you have a light?ââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÂ� routine will only grow in Dublin. †œIâà ¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€Š¾Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¢m amazed there hasnââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t been a slang word invented for it yet, but there will be one soon. You go into certain places and they are half empty, then you look out into the dingy lane or beer garden out the back and thatââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s where all the atmosphere is.ââ‚Âà ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÂ�

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by clarie

I know you did. Just thought I would spare myself the time of writing it all out again by just referring you to what I had already said.

What have you been smoking tonight clarie???

Originally Posted by clarie

Not sure what point you're trying to make to be honest.

I was responding to your response to my statement that normal aircrafts are not public places, therefore your point about fireman's chartered flight being a private party doesn't make a difference.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

What have you been smoking tonight clarie???

Nothing - she gave up years ago remember?

[Hom3r]

A pub near me which serves food, I very much doubt they will get rid of food so they get smokers in it.

A mate of mine who works theres says that they make more money on food on Sat/Sun than they do on booze all week.

So IMHO saying that pubs will go bust if they ban smoking doesn't hold much water to me.