Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?

[punky]

Always nice to see Iraqis protest, it is a legitmate human right they haven't had for 40 years.

Does make me smile though, when Iraqis protest UK/US forces. Either they have no concept of irony, or they have very short memories.

[BBKing]

Well, if two British policeman had been murdered on the streets of London by foreign fighters who then went on to demolish a prison to free some of their number, I think you'd be pretty weed off as well, and your protests would certainly not be 'ironic'.

Likewise, just because we kicked out Saddam in the name of freedom and democracy doesn't mean the Iraqis are somehow to be laughed at when they notice the lack of, er, freedom and democracy, and that the liberation has magically turned into an occupation.

[punky]

What you mention pales into insignificance when you are talking about having Saddam and his sons are your country's leaders.

If you were Iraqi you'd be dead a long time ago, with your mother, wife and daughters raped in front of you. If you were lucky, you would get away with the rapes and a beating, avoiding the wood chipper feet first.

If I was Iraqi, i'd think myself damn lucky the coalition forces came in, and some some fracas/confusion about police, on balance with Saddam/Uday/Qusay, I know what i'd rather have. However, my anger would be directed at the cause of this. The Iraqi police is filled with rebels and insurgents. They refused to hand the soldiers over at the Iraq's government's direct order. They brought this on themselves. The Iraqi government wern't happy at the action, but they understood it. A senior minister mentioned this in a phone call to Britain. However, the war in Iraq is very much a propaganda war, and it isn't only western leftist journalists stirring the s**t. Locals and middle east/Arab journalists are stirring it as well - and getting through to the locals and are very effective. The more moderate, accurate journalist, leftist or impartial isn't getting heard so the press, especially local are very much breeding the situation.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by CJU

Listen up i have lost family in iraq because both our country and america can't leave well enough alone. Unless they come over here killing like Hitler did stay out the way and get our troops back.
And as for Northern Ireland come on its been going on since 1983 and will continue to go on until the bueracrats get out.

Actually, the troubles in Northen Ireland have been going on since a long time BEFORE 1983..

Sorry about your loss, but say we do pull out of Iraq. What happens to the country then? Anarchy?

[punky]

The situation is a bit tricky. The Iraqis aren't anywhere near good enough to stand up for themselves, so we have to help. However, our presence is inciting trouble, that's making it tricky for the Iraqis in the first place. Its a vicious circle.

I would start whole and complete pullouts of confined cities (remaining at a safe distances, so they can return at short notice if deemed nescessary), as a test case. See what happens. Does the insurgency continue and Iraqi security forces fail? Or does the violence calm down and the Iraqis can take care of themselves? Hopefully, the latter would happen, and other forces can start pulling out.

[Stuart]

Punky: Good idea.. I personally have voted we should stay, but we shouldn't stay indefinately. That would start to look like we have annexed Iraq, which isn't good.

[computerkiller]

They should never have gone there Blair is a liar Or a stupit fool following bush in to a war no one Wanted just for oil there was never any wmdââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s And they new it

[etccarmageddon]

our lads and lasses out there are superb and doing a brave job.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by computerkiller

They should never have gone there Blair is a liar Or a stupit fool following bush in to a war no one Wanted just for oil there was never any wmdââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s And they new it

There was however 12 years of mass slaughter of Shiites
12 long years while the rest of the world stood back and let it happen
12 long years while men and boys were dragged from their beds to be shot in the back of the head and dumped in mass graves.
But hey, maybe that doesn't bother you?
It does me.

[punky]

Originally Posted by Stuart C

That would start to look like we have annexed Iraq, which isn't good.

Well, yes and no. If Iraq is so naturally split along Shiite and Sunni lines, and it takes behavior of Saddam to keep it together, should Iraq remain as one country? Isn't the only reason Iraq is there is because the UK just drew a vague line around a few tribes and cities and decided to call it Iraq.

I can't see what the problem is with annexing the country. Give the kurds Kurdistan in the north. They've fought impossible odds for their freedom for decades, they deserve it. If they wern't getting oppressed from Saddam, they were getting oppressed from Turkey. If Shiites and Sunnis aren't big or mature enough to live together then just give everyone their own bits and have done with it.

[Paul K]

Think part of the problem would be the location of oil fields in part of Iraq, isn't most of the oil production in one part of the country? If so the people left in the half without access to something that would bring them a lot of financial security would be very upset.

[punky]

Originally Posted by Paul

Think part of the problem would be the location of oil fields in part of Iraq, isn't most of the oil production in one part of the country? If so the people left in the half without access to something that would bring them a lot of financial security would be very upset.

I did think of that. The problem wouldn't be oil supply in general, but in quantity. Dividing the country into 3 logical parts would mean everyone gets some oil, but some would get more than most (Kurdistan would do worse, but they'd consider their freedom to be more important) The Shiites in the south I think would have more oil than the Sunnis...

The oil would be controlled and sold through anyway OPEC, so shouldn't be a problem really.

Originally Posted by punky

Well, yes and no. If Iraq is so naturally split along Shiite and Sunni lines, and it takes behavior of Saddam to keep it together, should Iraq remain as one country? Isn't the only reason Iraq is there is because the UK just drew a vague line around a few tribes and cities and decided to call it Iraq.

I can't see what the problem is with annexing the country. Give the kurds Kurdistan in the north. They've fought impossible odds for their freedom for decades, they deserve it. If they wern't getting oppressed from Saddam, they were getting oppressed from Turkey. If Shiites and Sunnis aren't big or mature enough to live together then just give everyone their own bits and have done with it.

The problem with that is the fact that most of the oil fields in Iraq are either in Kurdish northern Iraq. Or Shiite southern Iraq with a desert region dominated by Sunnis in the middle. If Iraq is carved up on ethnic grounds, then alot of Sunnis become improvished very quickly. All thats gonna do is breed even more anger and hatered in the Middle East. And if there is a full fledged civil war in Iraq, you can depend on all oil producing nations panicing about their ability to pump crude, and prices will start an uncontrolled upward spiral....

Originally Posted by computerkiller

They should never have gone there Blair is a liar Or a stupit fool following bush in to a war no one Wanted just for oil there was never any wmdââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s And they new it

Why do you think it was all about oil?

If it was, why are we still paying so much for the damn stuff?

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Tuftus

Why do you think it was all about oil?

Perhaps because, while the things Saddam did were terrible, we have allowed other leaders to do similar things where there is no oil.

If it was, why are we still paying so much for the damn stuff?

Profiteering?