??..New T&Cs..??

[Chrysalis]

umm what the hell is this about.


(ii) from time to time, we may contact you by mail, telephone, email, other electronic messaging services (such as text, voice, sound or image messages including using automated calling systems) or fax with information about our products and services (including discounts and special offers) and those of carefully selected reputable third parties which we think may be of interest to you;

(iii) from time to time, we may also share your information with carefully selected reputable companies outside the ntl group of companies so that they may contact you by mail, telephone, electronic messaging services (such as text, voice, sound or image messages including using automated calling systems) or fax to let you know about goods, services or promotions which we think may be of interest to you. We will not disclose your email address to third parties for marketing purposes without your specific consent or at your request

If you do not wish to receive marketing or promotional information from us or our carefully selected third parties, please write to: NTL Data Policy, PO Box 9521, Sutton Coldfield, B76 1BR, or visit our website www.ntl.com/home/dataprotection to register. If you write to us, please state in your letter whether you would prefer not to receive any promotional material from us or whether you would like to receive information from ntl by some but not other methods (the options are: by mail, telephone, electronic messaging services, fax and email). Please provide the same information in relation to promotional material from our carefully selected third parties. Remember that if you say you do not wish to receive any promotional material from ntl or our third parties, this will preclude you from receiving any of our special offers or promotions or those of third parties which may be of interest to you.


Ok so now all customers automatically have their phone number given out if they dont specifically contact NTL to say otherwise? I wonder how many thousands like me will be subject to this and have recieved nothing in the post yet, this might explain why I have had cold calls recently.


4.3 We reserve the right to monitor and control data volume and/or types of traffic transmitted via the Interactive Services and/or Internet Services. In the event that you exceed the usage allowances applicable to your Internet Services as detailed in the User Policy,


Can understand they want to measure amount of traffic each person uses but monitoring type of traffic? I hope they not sniffing traffic.

[nffc]

Originally Posted by XFS03

Did those who received the new T&C by post also receive the new User Policy?

I notice that the AUP has changed again. I was still under the impression that I had a download limit of 1GB/day. I now see that I have a usage allowance (downstream &/or upstream) of 30 GB/month. Much more flexible, but it would have been nice to know about it before it came into force.

Works out about the same, surely?
__________________

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

umm what the hell is this about.


(ii) from time to time, we may contact you by mail, telephone, email, other electronic messaging services (such as text, voice, sound or image messages including using automated calling systems) or fax with information about our products and services (including discounts and special offers) and those of carefully selected reputable third parties which we think may be of interest to you;

(iii) from time to time, we may also share your information with carefully selected reputable companies outside the ntl group of companies so that they may contact you by mail, telephone, electronic messaging services (such as text, voice, sound or image messages including using automated calling systems) or fax to let you know about goods, services or promotions which we think may be of interest to you. We will not disclose your email address to third parties for marketing purposes without your specific consent or at your request

If you do not wish to receive marketing or promotional information from us or our carefully selected third parties, please write to: NTL Data Policy, PO Box 9521, Sutton Coldfield, B76 1BR, or visit our website www.ntl.com/home/dataprotection to register. If you write to us, please state in your letter whether you would prefer not to receive any promotional material from us or whether you would like to receive information from ntl by some but not other methods (the options are: by mail, telephone, electronic messaging services, fax and email). Please provide the same information in relation to promotional material from our carefully selected third parties. Remember that if you say you do not wish to receive any promotional material from ntl or our third parties, this will preclude you from receiving any of our special offers or promotions or those of third parties which may be of interest to you.


Ok so now all customers automatically have their phone number given out if they dont specifically contact NTL to say otherwise? I wonder how many thousands like me will be subject to this and have recieved nothing in the post yet, this might explain why I have had cold calls recently.


4.3 We reserve the right to monitor and control data volume and/or types of traffic transmitted via the Interactive Services and/or Internet Services. In the event that you exceed the usage allowances applicable to your Internet Services as detailed in the User Policy,


Can understand they want to measure amount of traffic each person uses but monitoring type of traffic? I hope they not sniffing traffic.

Don't think really either is a cause for complaint...
- Phones- you can register with TPS which is free, and as it says, you can opt out (although, you should be able to opt-in and be out by default, I suppose) but, you don't have to get the calls, so I can't see a problem...
- Monitoring traffic- I think you'll find the right to use Packet Monitoring is pretty common ISP policy, and not an infringement of any human rights... as it stands, TCP/IP packets are pretty insecure, you only have to use AirSnare or Ethereal over an unsecured wireless lan to see that... and if one is that bothered, there are always other ISPs

[Chrysalis]

Thing is I am registered with the TPS and it doesnt seem to work that effectively.

I filled in the form to exclude myself and its a 28 day wait, so how many 3rd parties will get my details in that time.

[nffc]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Thing is I am registered with the TPS and it doesnt seem to work that effectively.

I filled in the form to exclude myself and its a 28 day wait, so how many 3rd parties will get my details in that time.

Doesn't matter, seeing as you can get them busted if they call after that.

[eric@]

OK, I havenââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t received any of these new T& Câ₠¬ÃƒÆ’¢â€žÂ¢s but from what I have read on this forum so far I do not like the sound of it.

If ntl feel like changing the rules there is not much I can do about it. However I would have thought it more ethical had they clearly informed me of the proposed changes, and given me a chance to object to the use of my data for direct marketing by themselves or of carefully selected reputable third parties. (I wonder how much they sold our details for and exactly who these reputable third parties are.)

I just hope they are more reputable than ntl otherwise God only knows what they may do with our data.

Guess when the leaflets start dropping on the mat advertising blow-up dolls we can always tell the other half it must be ntl?

End of rant.



.

[eric@]

Originally Posted by nffc

... and if one is that bothered, there are always other ISPs

That may be true for some, but not for all. And think of the person who posted the following: I have had mine but as I want the connection and I am happy with the connection so I have to accept the T&C or lose the connection.

Surely, the crux of this matter is the fact that ntl are changing the rules and the rule changes are going to affect many members in a negative fashion. Why should someone change an ISP that is providing a technically good service because someone in a managerial department who knows nothing (and cares less) of the services offered by the company decides to make a move concerned purely with the opportunity to leverage more cash out of the business. Probably someone akin to whoever decides not to spend some cash on Customer Service.

At one time if a company were supplying rubber widgets that company would have never employed a person in any string pulling position who knew nothing of the business of rubber widgets. Unfortunately, that is no longer the case. This new breed of manager might show a profit, but I often wonder how much greater that profit might have been if these guys understood their products, their customers, and the effects of their changes on customer attitudes.

No reasonable person would object to any company changing rules as long as the rules did not intrude on their lives. But I believe this change will.

I have just been in contact with my daughter who I knew was thinking of getting an ntl phone and I was going to tell her to reconsider. Unfortunately, she said the phone had already been installed. The following is a snip from our conversation

19/08/2005 22:26:11 Eric Soph if u read it carefully it says they are giving out our details to selected third parties to contact us

19/08/2005 22:27:04 Soph Eric oh yeh i know that the day we had the phone installed before even we knew what the number was we had ppl ringin about conservatories and windows and sky and all sorts

If that doesnââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t prove the likely effects of this latest ntl †œgood ideaââ‚ ¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ� of selling our data, what does?

Suffice to say, and if any senior ntl bods are reading this please believe me, do not be surprised if your home phone starts ringing at peculiar times, for it will be myself complaining to you. That is not a threat but a sincere promise. All it requires is one phone call to my number initiated by ntlââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s actions.

To say that I am annoyed is a gross understatement.

Before anyone tells me to change my ISP..........I believe it's too late!

PS
In anticipation, any appropriate names and phone numbers gratefully received by PM!





.

[ian@huth]

I very much doubt that NTL or any other company that passes details to third parties does so on a daily basis as each new customer comes along.

Most third party mailshots and phone calls eminate from info posted on websites where you have to watch out to see if ticking the box means you consent or do not consent. A wrong tick or absence of a tick can mean that you are giving 3rd parties permission to contact you even if you subscribe to TPS and MPS services.

Originally Posted by nffc

Quote:
Originally Posted by XFS03
Did those who received the new T&C by post also receive the new User Policy?

I notice that the AUP has changed again. I was still under the impression that I had a download limit of 1GB/day. I now see that I have a usage allowance (downstream &/or upstream) of 30 GB/month. Much more flexible, but it would have been nice to know about it before it came into force.


Works out about the same, surely?

It's not the same at all.
With 1GB/day, if you didn't use your daily allowance it would be lost for good.
With 30GB/month, you can use it however you want. If you took a 2 week holiday at the begining of the month, your 30GB limit would still be available to use over the following 2 weeks.

[nffc]

Originally Posted by XFS03

It's not the same at all.
With 1GB/day, if you didn't use your daily allowance it would be lost for good.
With 30GB/month, you can use it however you want. If you took a 2 week holiday at the begining of the month, your 30GB limit would still be available to use over the following 2 weeks.

Yeah- but if you use the service evenly, 1 GB/day is about 30 GB/month. I realise the monthly one is way more flexible- except when you go over the 1 GB/day more.
__________________

Originally Posted by eric@

That may be true for some, but not for all. And think of the person who posted the following: I have had mine but as I want the connection and I am happy with the connection so I have to accept the T&C or lose the connection.

Surely, the crux of this matter is the fact that ntl are changing the rules and the rule changes are going to affect many members in a negative fashion. Why should someone change an ISP that is providing a technically good service because someone in a managerial department who knows nothing (and cares less) of the services offered by the company decides to make a move concerned purely with the opportunity to leverage more cash out of the business. Probably someone akin to whoever decides not to spend some cash on Customer Service.

At one time if a company were supplying rubber widgets that company would have never employed a person in any string pulling position who knew nothing of the business of rubber widgets. Unfortunately, that is no longer the case. This new breed of manager might show a profit, but I often wonder how much greater that profit might have been if these guys understood their products, their customers, and the effects of their changes on customer attitudes.

No reasonable person would object to any company changing rules as long as the rules did not intrude on their lives. But I believe this change will.

I have just been in contact with my daughter who I knew was thinking of getting an ntl phone and I was going to tell her to reconsider. Unfortunately, she said the phone had already been installed. The following is a snip from our conversation

19/08/2005 22:26:11 Eric Soph if u read it carefully it says they are giving out our details to selected third parties to contact us

19/08/2005 22:27:04 Soph Eric oh yeh i know that the day we had the phone installed before even we knew what the number was we had ppl ringin about conservatories and windows and sky and all sorts

If that doesnââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t prove the likely effects of this latest ntl †œgood ideaââ‚ ¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ� of selling our data, what does?

Suffice to say, and if any senior ntl bods are reading this please believe me, do not be surprised if your home phone starts ringing at peculiar times, for it will be myself complaining to you. That is not a threat but a sincere promise. All it requires is one phone call to my number initiated by ntlââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s actions.

To say that I am annoyed is a gross understatement.

Before anyone tells me to change my ISP..........I believe it's too late!

PS
In anticipation, any appropriate names and phone numbers gratefully received by PM!





.

Yeah, I appreciate it's not the right thing and can see why people are that annoyed with it- as it stands, Cable is one of the better ways of connecting to the internet and if it works, NTL BB is pretty good. There's no technical reason to change and if they're enforcing silly T+Cs it's a crying shame, as well as if they're not treating the customers well...

However there is still the choice to get a BT line and have ADSL, if ntl are kinda forcing you off the connection with silly T+Cs, that was more the point, it is a free market...

[goblin]

Originally Posted by nffc

Don't think really either is a cause for complaint...

I suppose this depends upon your individual circumstances. If you work from home or are likely to be near the phone and are inclined to pick it up instinctivly when it rings. It could become a problem, especially when you find someone trying to sell you something.

Phones- you can register with TPS which is free, and as it says, you can opt out

There is a bit of a problem with the TPS, it only covers calls made FROM UK telephone lines. It does NOT cover calls from other countries. Which explains why most of the "cold calls" to numbers in the UK originate from outside of the UK, such places as Amsterdam and the USA where TPS regulation has no effect. Even though they have their own systems in effect, they don't accept complaints from outside their own countries boundaries. The effect of this is of course that once upon one of these lists, you are likely to be plagued by such calls.

(although, you should be able to opt-in and be out by default, I suppose)

This is how it should be. But it was decided that using it this was in the best interests of "business to explore other opportunities".

but, you don't have to get the calls, so I can't see a problem...

Here's the problem. With the existance of the TPS register, the value of peoples previously personal details has risen. Therefore advertisers and indeed businesses who wish to capitalise on such "untouched territory" ie: telephone numbers (Ex Directory) of people who have received little if any sales calls are worth more than those that have. NTL what with it being an "international", "Global" company will in all likelihood decide to sell your and my details to a company outside of the UK. So registering with the TPS\MPS\FPS will have little effect.

At the present time, NTL has a "business relationship" with their subscribers and as such can contact (us) them from time to time to further increase revenue. Unless we have specifically told them we are not interested. So technically, there is no reason to change the T&C's.

However, I imagine they are finding this a bit of a bind and as such by revising the T&C's they are looking for a way of overcoming this. This to me sugests that they are intending to supply our personal details to companies outside of the UK who shall be only too willing (for a suitable fee of course) to call target UK consumers in a bid to sell their wares.

This may not be a problem now, but it could become one. Especially when you consider that once the details are passed on, they will goto the highest bidder. Once they are out in the open, despite NTL's expected denials there is no way of controlling what an individual company will do with them and who they share them with and to who they shall pass them onto.

NTL will in all likelihood state at one point "No geographical information shall be passed onto such companies" sugesting that we don't have too much to worry about. Of course this protects them, as it means they have an additional list to "share" with various companies who are engaged in direct mail marketting.

What they will fail to tell you however, is that these telephone calls frequently are recorded and take the form of "Hello, this is James\Nora\Andy\Jane calling from NTL, is this Mr\Mrs xxxx, can you please confirm your address for me?" You reply confirming your address. Or not, if like myself you say "You are NTL, you tell me" they will reply with "Sorry Sir\Madam, we cannot do that as we are bound by the data protection act, we need you to clarrify who you are". The problem here is that it sounds like a call to report something is wrong with your account. When infact it is a sales call.

They will then move onto offering their "opportunity" to you. At which point you may decide to listen or advise them you are not interested. However, that company now has an "existing business relationship" with you, which entitles them to phone you again at a later date. Something which it is entitled to do under the guidelines of our very own Telephone Prefference Service. It may mean a "no" to NTL whilst they are under contract to call people advertising NTL's "additional services", but it also means another name on a list for the company making the call. That is another name that has previously not been called or has had limited exposure to sales calls and as such can be called again by them or whoever they sell their list too.

Of course may not be a problem for you personally, but for others it may be. Also worth a mention is your mobile phone - ever given it to NTL for contact purposes? If so, get ready for an influx of text messages, not to mention MMS messages which aren't governed by any body, even the TPS.

Also, worth a mention is the "automated calling systems", these things can be configured to not "hang up" (terminate) a call should the person receiving the call decide they don't wish to listen and just put the phone down. The result being that you go back sometime later to make a call, dial your required number, only to find that instead of talking to your favourite Aunty, your line is tied to the people you put the phone down on earlier. I have personal experience of this which unfortunately left me with an unusable phone for 24 hours whilst the auto dialer hung up. I phoned NTL about it and was told "sorry sir, there is nothing we can do - have you tried calling the number and asking them to hang up".

Do you see a "cause for complaint" yet?

[Chrysalis]

What has got me angry is that I ticked the appropriate box when I signed my initial contract so if I was automatically unticked so to speak they could have broken the original contract.

[jtwn]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

umm what the hell is this about.


(ii) from time to time, we may contact you by mail, telephone, email, other electronic messaging services (such as text, voice, sound or image messages including using automated calling systems) or fax with information about our products and services (including discounts and special offers) and those of carefully selected reputable third parties which we think may be of interest to you;

(iii) from time to time, we may also share your information with carefully selected reputable companies outside the ntl group of companies so that they may contact you by mail, telephone, electronic messaging services (such as text, voice, sound or image messages including using automated calling systems) or fax to let you know about goods, services or promotions which we think may be of interest to you. We will not disclose your email address to third parties for marketing purposes without your specific consent or at your request

If you do not wish to receive marketing or promotional information from us or our carefully selected third parties, please write to: NTL Data Policy, PO Box 9521, Sutton Coldfield, B76 1BR, or visit our website www.ntl.com/home/dataprotection to register. If you write to us, please state in your letter whether you would prefer not to receive any promotional material from us or whether you would like to receive information from ntl by some but not other methods (the options are: by mail, telephone, electronic messaging services, fax and email). Please provide the same information in relation to promotional material from our carefully selected third parties. Remember that if you say you do not wish to receive any promotional material from ntl or our third parties, this will preclude you from receiving any of our special offers or promotions or those of third parties which may be of interest to you.


Ok so now all customers automatically have their phone number given out if they dont specifically contact NTL to say otherwise? I wonder how many thousands like me will be subject to this and have recieved nothing in the post yet, this might explain why I have had cold calls recently.


4.3 We reserve the right to monitor and control data volume and/or types of traffic transmitted via the Interactive Services and/or Internet Services. In the event that you exceed the usage allowances applicable to your Internet Services as detailed in the User Policy,


Can understand they want to measure amount of traffic each person uses but monitoring type of traffic? I hope they not sniffing traffic.

Well when we took ntl phone out when it came out, we chose to be ex directory and have never (!) received any cold calls.

About the internet monitoring, I thought they monitored shopping habits anyway already.

[goblin]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

What has got me angry is that I ticked the appropriate box when I signed my initial contract so if I was automatically unticked so to speak they could have broken the original contract.

I know, I am in exactly the same situation. I made sure I ticked the appropriate boxes to not disclose my details to other companies, be they "specially selected" or otherwise.

What I find funny though is that in order to clarrify the situation to NTL. A situation that from a customers point of view doesn't require clarrifying. They expect you to write a letter, then pay for a stamp to send it to them. Now we all know that the postal system is less reliable than it used to be, so this letter may never be recieved by them should they make the mistake of sharing someone's details they should not have.

Quite ironically, they have chosen to not use their own email service either. Which kind of begs the question, do they trust that when you send an email it shall arrive, if the inference is to be believed. They obviously do not.

Or of course it could be that they making things deliberatly more difficult as it shall benefit them. As people shall maybe not bother sending a letter as it requires more effort. I am more likely to suspect the latter explanation is the correct one.

What I do find interesting however is, that the T&C's have been changed and the caps on broadband have been tightened up. Some people more suspicious than I might suspect that they are concerned about the emerging VOIP technology and as such are trying to squeeze the last drop of profit before they find themselves with loads of customers who aren't accessible through standard landlines and so they have unplugged their phones in favour of a VOIP connection. Of course such people may just be paranoid, but its something to think about.
__________________

Originally Posted by jtwn

Well when we took ntl phone out when it came out, we chose to be ex directory and have never (!) received any cold calls.

Good for you, I wish I could say the same

[cookie_365]

Err, how many people have had phone calls from third parties as a result of the changed T&Cs ?

None ?

If you previously indicated to NTL in some way that you didn't want this to happen, how do you know it will ?

[jonifen]

I would sign up for the TPS anyway, but I would also consider activating anonymous call blocking too.

We have received a lot of calls from third parties over the last few months despite being on the TPS. I usually do the following on phone calls:

1. ask if they're selling something
2. find out company name and some other info if possible
3. ask how they got our number (they usually say "a local database")
4. tell them "well, we are on a database that means we should not be receiving these types of calls. Companies that do not check this database before calling risk being fined upto 10 grand. I'll give you 2 options... 1, I report your company and you get fined as you could potentially lose your job... or 2, you hang up now and I wont say anything".

the last phone call I had ended quickly with the guy at the other end saying "OK, bye"


Before the last couple of months, we've had basically no calls at all from companies like this.