[merged] More NTL Mail Blacklisted

andygrif · 01-06-2005, 13:37

A couple of weeks ago my outgoing ntl mail was blacklisted by SpamCop for 48 hours....today it's on the MAPS blacklist..which is a bind as a company I communicate with about 20 times a day uses MAPS lists of bad IPs...

Check for yourself

http://www.mail-abuse.com/cgi-bin/lo...=81.103.221.35

This is getting beyond a joke...does anyone know what ntl are doing about this? Or does anyone know who I could ask to find out?

Cheers

Robert Atkins · 01-06-2005, 13:44

They could place a remove request

http://www.mail-abuse.com/removereq_dul.html

andygrif · 01-06-2005, 13:59

Yes...but who do I need to tell to get them to do so?

simbr · 01-06-2005, 15:10

ntl are aware of the problems and are working on it. The problem has been posted to the status page and is also given on IVRs:

"Ntlworld email customers may currently experience difficulties sending emails to anyone with an email address ending in AOL.com. Ntl are aware of this issue and are working with AOL to resolve this as soon as possible. Please be advised that our technical support representatives will be unable to resolve or provide any further details on this issue."
http://www.ntl-isp.ntl.com/ServiceSt...px?FaultID=358

(While this message states AOL since that was the initial symptom, they are aware of the MAPS issues)

gingerprince · 01-06-2005, 16:55

I'm getting some mails bounced when using smtp.ntlworld.com from my Linux box from people who use the mail-abuse MAPS blacklist. Looks like a whole chunk of NTL's infrastructure IP's have been blacklisted, including the SMTP server!!!

http://www.mail-abuse.com/cgi-bin/lo...=81.103.221.11

**Paul** · 01-06-2005, 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by andygrif

This is getting beyond a joke...does anyone know what ntl are doing about this? Or does anyone know who I could ask to find out?

What exactly would you propose ntl do about it ? they do not have any control over "MAPS" (or SpamCop).

simbr · 01-06-2005, 17:44

Looks like the IP range has been removed from the list now anyway; both of the above links are showing clear now.

Toto · 01-06-2005, 18:28

ntl was upgrading its mail servers early hours of this morning, they actually anticipated a few problems with certain lists banning their new servers.

andygrif · 02-06-2005, 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul M

What exactly would you propose ntl do about it ? they do not have any control over "MAPS" (or SpamCop).

I would expect that ntl would be in touch with MAPS as soon as it happens to get the IPs removed. Are you suggesting I'm asking too much?

If this was a one off then I would not be irritated by it...but this is happening now a little too often for my liking. Seems like it's at least once a month now that my IP appears on one blacklist or another, and I'm not a really heavy emailer.

Do all ISP's suffer from this from to time or is it just ntl? And if it's just ntl, what are they doing to make sure it stops soon?

Quote:

Originally Posted by simbr

(While this message states AOL since that was the initial symptom, they are
aware of the MAPS issues)

OK, whilst it may say that to someone like you in the know...to us mere laymen (the majority) it says nothing of the sort. It talks about specific issue with AOL (which bear in mind has happened several times before, I once waited for over a week for a message to be delivered to my mum on AOL!)

Yesterday's issue had nothing to do with AOL (for me), if ntl is going to be blacklisted by a third party it would make sense to tell customers that on the status page, whilst trying to resolve it with the blacklist provider.

simbr · 02-06-2005, 15:06

ntl are migrating onto a new mail platform. Because of this the IP addresses have changed. I imagine MAPS saw a heap of traffic coming from somewhere unexpected and blocked it. THe first symptom of this was problems sending to AOL and the first thing they did was inform people of the problem on the status page. It was then determined that the problem was with MAPS, not AOL itself and the block was removed.

**Paul** · 02-06-2005, 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by andygrif

I would expect that ntl would be in touch with MAPS as soon as it happens to get the IPs removed. Are you suggesting I'm asking too much?

What do you think they do - sit on their backsides and laugh among themselves ? - when they know it's an issue (with MAPS for instance) then of course they contact them. 1. It takes time to isolate the problem, 2. When reported to the appropiate body the matter is then out of their control - MAPS (or whoever) could take hours to respond, esp if they are in a different timezone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andygrif

If this was a one off then I would not be irritated by it...but this is happening now a little too often for my liking. Seems like it's at least once a month now that my IP appears on one blacklist or another, and I'm not a really heavy emailer.

Again, this has nothing to do with ntl - they do not control MAPS or any other blacklist, all they can do is request that ip's be removed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andygrif

Do all ISP's suffer from this from to time or is it just ntl? And if it's just ntl, what are they doing to make sure it stops soon?

Yes, all ISP's suffer - for example - http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/162/

andygrif · 02-06-2005, 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul M

What do you think they do - sit on their backsides and laugh among themselves ?

Do you honestly want me to answer that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul M

Again, this has nothing to do with ntl - they do not control MAPS or any other blacklist, all they can do is request that ip's be removed.

I know that, but after me reporting it to ntl I have heard the grand total of nothing from them. So excuse me for being somewhat doubtful that they did a damn thing.

If they had done something why not put a message on the server status page? Or why not be a little clever and tell the blacklist companies of the change BEFORE it happens? It seems that some people at ntl forget that these kind of problems have real world implications, and they should start taking their responsibilities a little more seriously.

BTW, the IPs are still blacklisted at SpamCop as of this evening, but I still don't see any message posted on the status page about it. All very poor IMO.

**Paul** · 02-06-2005, 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by andygrif

Do you honestly want me to answer that

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andygrif

I know that, but after me reporting it to ntl I have heard the grand total of nothing from them. So excuse me for being somewhat doubtful that they did a damn thing.

I expect thousands of people reported it, how practical would it be to get back to every single one of them ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by andygrif

If they had done something why not put a message on the server status page? Or why not be a little clever and tell the blacklist companies of the change BEFORE it happens? It seems that some people at ntl forget that these kind of problems have real world implications, and they should start taking their responsibilities a little more seriously.

Perhaps they don't see why they should attempt to notify every man and his dog about their internal system changes. The whole point of the dns system is to allow anyone to change ip's without haveing to tell everyone else. Blacklist companies should easily be able to cope with such a change, they happen all the while (btw, it was only speculation by simbr that this may have contributed, there is no evidence to support it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by andygrif

BTW, the IPs are still blacklisted at SpamCop as of this evening, but I still don't see any message posted on the status page about it. All very poor IMO.

Well we will agree on one thing - the service status page is poor and often missing known problems.

andygrif · 03-06-2005, 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul M

What do you think they do - sit on their backsides and laugh among themselves ?

OK, since you asked, yes...given past experience that's exactly what I expect them to be doing, and I've not seen any evidence that they've got any better, so until proved otherwise, as you might have guessed, I do think they're blinking useless, and this (for me) only serves to prove the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul M

Yes.

I expect thousands of people reported it, how practical would it be to get back to every single one of them ?

Did they get thousands of reports? If so why no message on the Status page?

Also, it used to be the case that I got an auto-response when sending emails to support. Not a sausage this time, again IMO rather amateurish not to do so.

Listen, I'm not unreasonable....cock-ups happen (lord knows they happen more at ntl than anywhere else, but still they happen). When cock-ups happen it's a good idea to tell people about it to avoid looking more stupid than you did before....and this is the point...nothing....which to me only makes them look more useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul M

Perhaps they don't see why they should attempt to notify every man and his dog about their internal system changes. The whole point of the dns system is to allow anyone to change ip's without haveing to tell everyone else. Blacklist companies should easily be able to cope with such a change, they happen all the while (btw, it was only speculation by simbr that this may have contributed, there is no evidence to support it).

I understand that it might not be the cause, but it does makes sense. Personally I DO see why they should tell all and sundry of the change beforehand, as it saves a lot of extra work at the rear-end sorting the mess they created out...if what you say about thousands of people contacting them to report the problem is correct, then how much has it cost ntl in terms of man-hours dealing with all the calls? And how long would it have taken to send an email to four blacklist administrators before-hand. It's not rocket-science, and if you know that such a change can trigger blacklisting how come one of the biggest ISP's the country doesn't?

Even if the DNS change is not the cause, this is the third time in as many months (although the first time my emails have actually been rejected automatically AFAIK).....if it was a one-off I wouldn't be annoyed, even the second time was forgivable, but it's getting silly now, and hugely inconvenient.

Even though you suggest that TW has had the problem too, I don't think that they've had the same thing three times in the last 90 days have they?

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on this. Perhaps if you were freelance and relied on your email every day to eat then you might see where I'm coming from.

shin0r · 03-06-2005, 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by andygrif

OK, since you asked, yes...given past experience that's exactly what I expect them to be doing, and I've not seen any evidence that they've got any better, so until proved otherwise, as you might have guessed, I do think they're blinking useless, and this (for me) only serves to prove the point.

It's not ntl you should be moaning about, it's the blacklist administrators. You can't opt-out or whitelist your IPs with people like Spamcop. If you read Sapamcop's FAQ you'll note that they actively admit their service is perfect and shouldn't be relied on as a business tool.

Big ISPs constantly experience problems with over-zealous blacklist administrators. Think about how many emails the ntl MTAs send each day - it's millions - and they very often end up on blacklists.