NTL promoting copyright infringement - Page 7

Stuart W · 05-09-2003, 10:23

Quote:

Originally posted by JustAnotherN00b
StuartW:

OK so if you got convicted of theft you'd see fit to sue HMG for loss of pay? You got caught, suspended, and you want ntl to reimburse you for cutting you off. Frankly you are lucky you were put back on at all, let alone the fact what you did was illegal and carries a prison sentence if they'd wanted to take it that far.

For what it's worth I absolutely agree, the advert is completely out of order, and someone in that business unit does deserve a bit of a slapping for it. Just the way certain people are going about this is damn childish, bordering on pathetic.

Sorry, should have explained clearly... I didn't seek to be compensated for the suspension period... I meant the times my CM has gone down for over a week and ntl don't seem interestead in sorting it out.

As for the prison thing, are you sure?? lol
How long is the min / max sentence for uncapping then?

Stuart W · 05-09-2003, 10:24

Quote:

Originally posted by orangebird
Sorry Stuart,

no need to appologise

Quote:

you really are scraping the bottom of the 'for instance' barrel now.....

How so?

Same scenario isn't it?

05-09-2003, 10:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Stuart W
No need. You have already done it.

Superman available on net before cinema.

Picture this.... Your son comes home from school and calls you a f*cking c*nt and tells you to s*ck his d*ck. This fills you with rage and you demand to know why he is saying these things.... he says "Well, my teachers were telling me about a former pupil at the school who swore a lot, I thought it was a good idea, so I have incorperated it into my vocabulary, you c*nt"
Needless to say you ring the school, who confirm that bad language was the topic of todays lessons.

Of course, you would accept this and let your son carry on with the foul language wouldn't you.

More importantly, you wouldn't do anything about the school teaching kids this stuff without explaining that it is actually wrong because, after all, you have used foul language and wouldn't want to be a hypocrite eh?

Eh?

I am unsure how I Have "already done it".
There must be some kind of invisable wording in that advert that I cannot see.
Show me, i.e Highlight where it says "Join NTL and you can use your connection for copyright theft".

And for your information I am very liberal minded, If my son came home form school swearing, whcih indeed he will one day.
I would simply point out that its ok for him to know these words but he shouldnt really say them too often because its not very nice.
I certainly wouldnt chastise him for doing somehting ALL kids do.

**Chris** · 05-09-2003, 10:24

Quote:

Originally posted by timewarrior2001
Right I have just re-read the article.

NTL are not saying anything, what they are doing is quoting Facts about the internet.
They do not say use NTL to illegally download movies, they dont even say Download movies. It says 400,000 to 600,000 movies are downloaded a day. It doesnt even say 400,000 to 600,000 movoies are downloaded using NTL home internet a day.

Then it says that spiderman was available on the net before the cinemas, which is true, so was the Hulk.

can someone show me where it says illegally download movies, I cant see it, can someone show me where it says Use your NTL connection to steal copyright?

well can they?

If the article was merely a discussion of what goes on on the internet, there would be no wrongdoing on ntl's part. But it is not merely a discussion. It is in the context of an advertisement, and the reasonable assumption is that anything said in an advert is intended to support the proposition that you buy/subscribe to the product being described. So when NTL advertises its broadband internet, and tells people they should sign up, and then issues statistics about illegal activities as part of that advert (without saying these are illegal and warning you not to do it), we can reasonably conclude that they are inciting people to commit an illegal act. IMHO. But I think the ASA might agree.

Ignition · 05-09-2003, 10:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Stuart W
Sorry, should have explained clearly... I didn't seek to be compensated for the suspension period... I meant the times my CM has gone down for over a week and ntl don't seem interestead in sorting it out.

As for the prison thing, are you sure?? lol
How long is the min / max sentence for uncapping then?

Ahh, ask CS for compensation grasshopper and it shall be yours, though only at rate of whatever you pay per day. Higher levels of compensation are reserved for those who pay for SLAs.

Well yes, it's theft, and also violation of Computer Misuse Act, no idea of the penalties involved.

orangebird · 05-09-2003, 10:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Stuart W
no need to appologise

How so?

Same scenario isn't it?

No, it's not. For starters, if my son came home from school with that kind of language, apart from dishing out a clip round the ear, I would also take the responsibility for myself. Any child of mine would know the right and wrong words to use, regardless of what some teacher has told them.

05-09-2003, 10:37

Quote:

Originally posted by towny
If the article was merely a discussion of what goes on on the internet, there would be no wrongdoing on ntl's part. But it is not merely a discussion. It is in the context of an advertisement, and the reasonable assumption is that anything said in an advert is intended to support the proposition that you buy/subscribe to the product being described. So when NTL advertises its broadband internet, and tells people they should sign up, and then issues statistics about illegal activities as part of that advert (without saying these are illegal and warning you not to do it), we can reasonably conclude that they are inciting people to commit an illegal act. IMHO. But I think the ASA might agree.

Towny you raised some interesting points there, and I would normally accept them as being good enough, however, I think its wrong. The Advert isnt the best written advert I've seen, no Far from it.

What I contest is that some of the users on here have rushed headlong into this argument and are trying their best to even their personal gripes with NTL. Not only this, but they are also on the other hand demanding NTL spend money to upgrade the network and enable the 2Mb connection speed also to remove the download CAP.

Now the way I see the advert is this:-

Its predominantly an NTL advertisment for BB internet. They then have a side panel seperated from the main advertisement by a border, and within this border it repeats some facts about internet usage as a whole.

The advertisment in my oppinoin is poor, as it doesnt state where those facts came from. But anyone with a ha'peth of intelligence would know that they are not talking solely about NTL home BB connections there.
I am not saying NTL dont deserve a ticking off because the advertisement is poor and doesnt carry T&C small print.

I also dont think reporting NTL to FACT for this matter is appropriate either.

**Chris** · 05-09-2003, 10:38

Quote:

Originally posted by orangebird
No, it's not. For starters, if my son came home from school with that kind of language, apart from dishing out a clip round the ear, I would also take the responsibility for myself. Any child of mine would know the right and wrong words to use, regardless of what some teacher has told them.

But, assuming you've sworn at some time in your life, doesn't the fact that you tell your son off for the same thing make you a hypocrite too?

Stuart W · 05-09-2003, 10:39

I have been working with FACT and FAST for a number of years now and can assure you that this is EXACTLY what FACT need to know about.

Adverts like this WILL promote the downloading of copyrighted material.

th'engineer · 05-09-2003, 10:39

Quote:

in reply to JustAnotherN00b

I am quite happy to stop moaning about NTL when NTL have some respect for there customers.

Remove the CAP

I will will stop posting on this site and others is that a deal when NTL actually listen and remove the CAP

orangebird · 05-09-2003, 10:44

Quote:

Originally posted by th'engineer
I am quite happy to stop moaning about NTL when NTL have some respect for there customers.

Remove the CAP

I will will stop posting on this site and others is that a deal when NTL actually listen and remove the CAP

Oh right - so what it looks to me like you're sayng is -

'I have the hump about the cap, and I couldn't give a **** about the promotion of illegally downloading material - it just suits my agenda to p1ss ntl off anyway I can until I get my own way'.

Excellent.

**Chris** · 05-09-2003, 10:46

Quote:

Originally posted by timewarrior2001
Its predominantly an NTL advertisment for BB internet. They then have a side panel seperated from the main advertisement by a border, and within this border it repeats some facts about internet usage as a whole.

The advertisment in my oppinoin is poor, as it doesnt state where those facts came from. But anyone with a ha'peth of intelligence would know that they are not talking solely about NTL home BB connections there.
I am not saying NTL dont deserve a ticking off because the advertisement is poor and doesnt carry T&C small print.

I also dont think reporting NTL to FACT for this matter is appropriate either.

You're right, where borders between items on news pages has been the key deciding factors in many a court case, more usually where libel is concerned. But the panel in this case doesn't separate the information from the advert, it's simply a 'sidebar' - a list of related facts that don't easily fit into the main narrative of the text. As such it is still clearly part of the advert. The overall headline also extends over the top of the sidebar, reinforcing this.

On the issue of it not saying these downloads were achieved using NTL connections, again you're right it doesn't. However I've never suggested that this is what NTL are saying (can't speak fow what others have posted) and I don't think they need to be saying this to be inciting illegal activity. They are advertising boradband, then pointing out what some other people use the internet for. The context of this suggestion clearly implies that they see these statistics as a good thing.

These may seem like pedantic details, but as both FACT and the ASA are now clearly involved, they are exactly the issues that are going to get mulled over by the agencies, and, I think, sweated over by NTL's lawyers, who I am certain can't have okayed this before it went to print.

05-09-2003, 10:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Stuart W
I have been working with FACT and FAST for a number of years now and can assure you that this is EXACTLY what FACT need to know about.

Adverts like this WILL promote the downloading of copyrighted material.

That kind of behaviour doesnt need promting its rife anyway, but I guess its ok as long as someone doesnt acknowledge it happens?

As for you uncapping you CM, just because you didnt use the extra bandwidth doesnt make it permissable or acceptable.
Your actions then, as now, could have a detrimental affect on others service.

That is the ONLY reason I am against your actions. I agree the advert is a bad advert but it also doesnt state your wording, it possibly infers it, but only if you want to see that.

Stuart W · 05-09-2003, 10:47

Quote:

Originally posted by orangebird
No, it's not. For starters, if my son came home from school with that kind of language, apart from dishing out a clip round the ear, I would also take the responsibility for myself. Any child of mine would know the right and wrong words to use, regardless of what some teacher has told them.

So you'd be OK with the school teaching him language like that and NOT pointing out it is wrong??

I know I wouldn't! I'd be straight on to the education authority!

th'engineer · 05-09-2003, 10:48

Quote:

Originally posted by orangebird
Oh right - so what it looks to me like you're sayng is -

'I have the hump about the cap, and I couldn't give a **** about the promotion of illegally downloading material - it just suits my agenda to p1ss ntl off anyway I can until I get my own way'.

Excellent.

Well sussed out OB and quite happy to carry on doing it till my service is restored to what i signed up for UN CAPPED