Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison

[me283]

Originally Posted by danielf

Why is it off-topic? You brought it up. In fact, by insisting on using quotation marks when referring to human rights, you appear to make a point of bringing it up in every other post.

Well if you've read so many of my posts you will know why I am so opposed to it.
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Originally Posted by punky

Well TBH mate, these nut cases want to martyr themselves... The threatening a would-be martyr with the death penalty I doubt would scare them much.

I think martyrdom might be less appealing if it involved possible execution, instead of 15 years in jail with regular visits, nice facilities, the odd appeal, and other perks.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by me283

Well if you've read so many of my posts you will know why I am so opposed to it.

actually no. So please explain...

Originally Posted by me283

I think martyrdom might be less appealing if it involved possible execution, instead of 15 years in jail with regular visits, nice facilities, the odd appeal, and other perks.

Ah, but if I remember correctly, a muslim that dies in a holy war is guaranteed entry into heaven (according to muslim religion), so what you're advocating may appeal to some as a cushy way into heaven.

[me283]

Originally Posted by danielf

actually no. So please explain...



Ah, but if I remember correctly, a muslim that dies in a holy war is guaranteed entry into heaven (according to muslim religion), so what you're advocating may appeal to some as a cushy way into heaven.

Putting it simply, it does not take into account the rights of the many, whose rights are impinged by others... in a nutshell.

And if I am not wrong, a dead terrorist cannot commit further atrocities, martyr or not.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by me283

He was willing to commit genocide on as great a scale as possible.

He chose a very poor weapon, then. Ricin is not a WMD, & is no use if you want to commit genocide. Poison one person, or a few people, yes, but not masses.

Originally Posted by me283

In answer (to the best of my knowledge):

2) Does it matter how "nasty" the poison is?

Yes.

Ricin is a poison, is "nasty", & can kill. But not on the scale of something like anthrax, or other "proper" CBW.

Originally Posted by me283

4) I understood that it had been found. At what stage of it's manufacturing process, again I do not know.

Initial press reports were that it had been found. Subsequent tests found that there was no ricin at the flat at all - although the press reports were never corrected.

Originally Posted by me283

5) There are reports that it was Al-Qaeda supported. But what exactly does that have to do with it?

The press (& Government, & the US) made it out to be part of some huge Al Qaeda plot, the Govt & the US also tried to link it to Iraq, to drum up support for the upcoming war. Colin Powell even mentioned the "ricin plot" in his speech to the UN before the war.

But there were no Al Qaeda links.

Just some murdering nutter with recipes obtained from the net.

[me283]

Originally Posted by Matt D

He chose a very poor weapon, then. Ricin is not a WMD, & is no use if you want to commit genocide. Poison one person, or a few people, yes, but not masses.



Yes.

Ricin is a poison, is "nasty", & can kill. But not on the scale of something like anthrax, or other "proper" CBW.



Initial press reports were that it had been found. Subsequent tests found that there was no ricin at the flat at all - although the press reports were never corrected.



The press (& Government, & the US) made it out to be part of some huge Al Qaeda plot, the Govt & the US also tried to link it to Iraq, to drum up support for the upcoming war. Colin Powell even mentioned the "ricin plot" in his speech to the UN before the war.

But there were no Al Qaeda links.

Just some murdering nutter with recipes obtained from the net.

Very dismissive. No mention of cyanide in your reply though? Is that just another "nasty" poison? I think not.

But bear in mind, as you concur, he wanted to commit genocide. Do you think he would have changed his mind if (and I don't necessarily agree here) his ricin had failed?

[punky]

Originally Posted by me283

I think martyrdom might be less appealing if it involved possible execution, instead of 15 years in jail with regular visits, nice facilities, the odd appeal, and other perks.

If he really wants to be a martyr, then in that case i'd be more likely to deny him execution and let him live him in jail, just to pi** him off more.

[me283]

Originally Posted by punky

If he really wants to be a martyr, then in that case i'd be more likely to deny him execution and let him live him in jail, just to pi** him off more.

But I believe punishment should fit the crime... and 15 years of cushy prison doesn't equate to plotting genocide? But I take your point; it's just a pity that life imprisonment doesn't mean life.

Originally Posted by me283

Very dismissive. No mention of cyanide in your reply though? Is that just another "nasty" poison? I think not.

But bear in mind, as you concur, he wanted to commit genocide. Do you think he would have changed his mind if (and I don't necessarily agree here) his ricin had failed?

cyanide is useless in the open air - it is less dense & rises, it only works in an enclosed space, as a gas...

Some people in this thread might be interested to read the following from The Register...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04...en_ricin_case/

It contains some rather interesting and relevant *FACTS* about this case...!

Originally Posted by me283

Whereas, were he to be sat on Death Row now, those youngsters might not be so keen to take his place...

The death penality has no effect on reducing crime

Originally Posted by danielf

In fact, by insisting on using quotation marks when referring to human rights, you appear to make a point of bringing it up in every other post.

I'm glad it's not just me who finds this childish habit irritating. As I do those who put words in capitals as if that makes their point more worthy. It doesn't.

Sorry, off topic, but I do feel better for it.

On this case one thing that really struck me was the forgiveness expressed by Stephen Oake's wife. She struck me as a verey dignified woman and it's a shame that her and her family's grief will be trodden on as the political parties try to make capital out of this.

[me283]

Originally Posted by homealone

cyanide is useless in the open air - it is less dense & rises, it only works in an enclosed space, as a gas...

It was reported that the cyanide gas was to be used on the underground.
__________________

Originally Posted by andyl

I'm glad it's not just me who finds this childish habit irritating. As I do those who put words in capitals as if that makes their point more worthy. It doesn't.

Sorry, off topic, but I do feel better for it.

On this case one thing that really struck me was the forgiveness expressed by Stephen Oake's wife. She struck me as a verey dignified woman and it's a shame that her and her family's grief will be trodden on as the political parties try to make capital out of this.

CAPITALS are used to emphasise; some also use bold. It is the written equivalent to verbal inflection. "Inverted commas" are used by some in a semi-mocking tone, or if you like, a written equivalent to verbal sarcasm.

It's a pity you don't like the way people express themselves.

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by Damien

The death penality has no effect on reducing crime

Having said that, it does have an effect on reducing criminals

The problem with the death penalty is that there is too much potential for the wrong person to be punished. Obviously, in this case, the guy has been found guilty and sentenced accordingly.

However, I don't feel that the death penalty would be applicable for the ricin issue (the fact that he murdered a policeman is another issue). With regards to the potential 'genocide', while he possessed the tools to harm / murder a fairly large amount of people, he didn't actually do it. As a result, if the death penalty was enforced, surely, in this instance, it would have been enforced because of the potential for somebody to commit the crime, in which case we could all be in trouble because we all have that potential.

[me283]

Originally Posted by Damien

The death penality has no effect on reducing crime

No doubt you can produce stats from America, but that has been mooted many times. It remains to be seen.
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Originally Posted by Graham

Some people in this thread might be interested to read the following from The Register...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04...en_ricin_case/

It contains some rather interesting and relevant *FACTS* about this case...!

Very interesting, good link. Thanks for that. It's surprising how reports differ.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Nugget

Having said that, it does have an effect on reducing criminals

Usually to ashes...

The problem with the death penalty is that there is too much potential for the wrong person to be punished. Obviously, in this case, the guy has been found guilty and sentenced accordingly.

True. While I often defend our legal system, it's possible for mistakes to occur in any legal system.

However, I don't feel that the death penalty would be applicable for the ricin issue (the fact that he murdered a policeman is another issue). With regards to the potential 'genocide', while he possessed the tools to harm / murder a fairly large amount of people, he didn't actually do it. As a result, if the death penalty was enforced, surely, in this instance, it would have been enforced because of the potential for somebody to commit the crime, in which case we could all be in trouble because we all have that potential.

True. As far as I can tell (of course, I haven't seen the evidence, so could be wrong), all they have proved is he had the recipe, and some of the ingrediants for Ricin. Even assuming he did manage to make it up, possessing a dangerous chemical is not a good reason to put somebody to death. After all, we all have bottles of bleach, disinfectant, various poisons for gardening etc. If he HAD released the Ricin (or cyanide) into an area and killed or injured people, that would be more of a reason.

me283, this is off topic, but you seem to know an awful lot about prisons (pretty sure I've seen you compare them to holiday camps before). Do you actually have any experience of them (visiting, or talking to people that have experienced prison), or are you basing your opinion on what the media say? As I have said, I know someone who did do time, and he paints a different picture of prison life.