Black boxes for all cars

theres also a lot of unsupervised untested dothering idiots that ride pushbikes on the road.
Theres the brainless morons of motorbike riders that think 150mph on a motorway is safe. The idiotic ******* that the other day popped a wheelie overtaking me at 80+mph.
The ******** that tailgated me into a traffic jam then kicked my car cos he had to swerve when I braked hard.

Dont just blame car drivers, its road users in general.

[Shaun]

Originally posted by towny
Why?

If only we knew.

To be honest I cant understand people knocking the Labour movement at the moment. Yes people are becoming disillusioned about some of their policy's, but most people are in work and have money in their pocket to spend.

The way the other party's are at the moment I cant see a viable alternative. Most of the rest of the world is either in or just coming out of recession, were not, we should be grateful for that. I'm not saying we should just grin and bear policy's that we don't like, if we don't tell them were unhappy nothing can change but come on things are better now that they were when the labour government came in.

I'm not a staunch Labour supporter and when there is a party that offer something better I'll switch but whats the point cribbing when things aren't that bad. Do you guys not remember the 80's? I'm only 22 and remember what things were like. Not nice.

[Shaun]

Originally posted by Scarlett
And is dellwear actually going to admit to being a non driver/ non car owner ?

Scarlett

I can drive but I don't have a car, I just can't afford one at the moment. There is no way I can justyfy £1000+ in insurance for somthing everyone can live without. But when i do drive I stick to the limit, I don't jump red lights, I stick to my lane and don'tdrive like a ****.

Originally posted by dellwear
[BMost of the rest of the world is either in or just coming out of recession, were not, we should be grateful for that.[/B]

Our Gordon continued Tory spending plans for about two years and has followed a more or less Tory-style economic policy ever since. Only in the last couple of years has he begun to creep back towards tax-and-spend, and if he keeps it up we'll soon see how well we cope with the Global recession. Some of his decisions are likely to have serious long-term consequences. I'm one of the lucky few employees left in UK in a final salary pension scheme, but my contributions have already gone up a huge chuink thanks to Gordon's stealth taxes.

What I'm saying is that after a mere six years in power it is far too soon to sing the praises of Labour's 'economic success'. The Tories presided over rising unemployment in the early/mid 80s because they were brave enough to take on stalinist nationalised industries which were over-employing to a ridiculous extent while simultaneously managing just about the worst productivity levels of any leading industrial nation. They turned things round then ruined it by linking the pound to the European exchange rate mechanism ... and having learned their lesson, the Tories are now largely anti-Euro while Labour can't wait to cause a far worse mess by taking us into the Euro.

By 1997 the economy was improving steadily (why d'you think Gordon decided to stick with Tory policy?), unemployment was plummetting but the electorate was simply tired of the Tories and their 'sleaze' ... something else that pales in comparison with the current spin-obsessed Government's antics.

(No offence but if you're 22 you were born in 1981-ish, two years after the Tories came to power, and you can't have been very aware of political life until maybe 1990. If you're appealing to personal recollection to back your view, you can hardly claim to be seeing the whole picture.)

Now why is this anything to do with car tracking?

It's because of this: The fundamental ideological difference between the Tories and the 'Labour Movement' (interesting that you use that phrase as I think there is a significant difference between the Movement and the current party leadership) is that Tories believe in the freedom of the individual, wherever possible, to make their own decisions and choices. State interference in the life of the individual is as minimal as reasonably possible. Meanwhile Labour's instinct is to plan, control and engineer. It is naturally attracted to schemes that force people to do what they determine is good for them. Nanny knows best, after all.

This is why schemes like this are typically Labour and why putting an end to them is simple - get Labour out.

[Shaun]

I really don't see what the problem is with the idea of having a chip in your car, I don't see how this is 'nanny knows best'. The idea here is for the chip to help the police enforce the law (enabling them to get on with real crimes), the law would be the same whether the government was Labour, Conservative or Green.

This is separate from my point made about knocking the Labour government. At the present time our country is stable, more so than it has been for a long while. I'm not saying it will stay like this but people seem hell bent in changing the government (mid term jitters I guess). If it ain't broke don't fix it.

As for sleaze, **** happens, every government has sleaze in one way or another, the Labour government has sleaze in the form of "spin" (media induced if you ask me), the Conservatives were having illegitimate children, and brown envelopes.

I and no doubt the rest of you lead a very boring life, what I mean is were not drug dealers or terrorists, even if chips were in your cars now the government or the police would have no interest in your activity's, unless you broke the law.

Oh, and I do remember the 80's, I remember my dad being out of work for years on end because the mining industry he worked in and tha economy as a whole was in turmoil, at least now those who want a job have one.

Please don't get em wrong, I'm not saying the world is rosey, it isn't, we have a long way to go. Micro chipped passports, ID cards, a national (voluntary) DNA database, local councils need a shake up, as does the NHS and the police, and lets not even get on to the railways. These things do take time as you said Towny but they will come together eventually.

Personal I will vote for which ever party is going to offer me and my country stability and peace, and at the moment the Labour government are the only ones that seem to have a plan. If the Conservatives or the Liberal democrats could show that they will do things better then I'll vote for them, however scrapping the fishing licence is not going to save the country, is it??

[Lord Nikon]

Its not JUST about the chip, although it DOES look to infringe the right to privacy and move towards an orwelian 1984esque state, its about the "47 new offences" they want to introduce.

Laws that make things safer are a good thing, but in recent years we have seen WAY too many rights REMOVED from the people.

The only people who have improved their rights in this country recently are criminals and children.

Burglar gets hurt breaking into your house? He will sue you for damages.
Child gets smacked for acting up? you are looking at child abuse charges.

Tell me how THAT improves things?

Tell me how the police being able to charge you with exceeding the speed limit briefly is gonna help the country? irrespective of WHY you exceeded it?
Tell me how the police being able to track the location, speed, and usage of a vehicle helps the country?

Bear in mind that there is ONE instance when you can LEGALLY drive a car without an MOT when it needs one.... That is when you are taking it to or from an MOT Center for a PRE ARRANGED MOT or taking it to or from a Garage for work to be carried out on it for an MOT.

The chip will merely detect you driving without an MOT and prosecute you accordingly. With the police at least you can explain that you are going to an MOT center and they can check, then send you on your way without charging you.

Currently you can not tax a car without the log book, can't get number plates made without a log book. Why?

Why would you want to tax a car that wasn't yours? not likely...

If they want proof of the ownership of a vehicle then why not do as they did before? proof of address.

I found one place back in feb that "bent" the rules, I needed a new number plate for the front of a car I bought from a scrapyard so I could get its MOT sorted. The car passed first time, and was taxed on the last day before the law changed.

I did not have the log book for the vehicle, yet had purchased it legally, MOTd it, replaced a damaged (half missing) front number plate, and registered the change of ownership on time... it was insured fully comp and everything is 100% fine. the time between purchasing and using it was a WEEK.(I had to wait for the insurance covernote so I could tax it, and had to do a couple of small repairs for the MOT)

Same vehicle now?

Day 1, Purchase car and have it transported to your home
Day 2 - Book MOT and do any obvious jobs
Day 7 - Passes MOT, unable to tax until log book arrives

Day 30 - log book arrives, finally able to tax vehicle, 4 TIMES longer to do than before the law changed.

Don't you just love it?

[cjmillsnun]

Originally posted by dellwear
I really don't see what the problem is with the idea of having a chip in your car, I don't see how this is 'nanny knows best'. The idea here is for the chip to help the police enforce the law (enabling them to get on with real crimes), the law would be the same whether the government was Labour, Conservative or Green.

Right,you have a chip in your car and some a***hole who you are alongside decides to pull into your lane (in the space you are in), you briefly accellerate taking you to 40mph (30 limit). Doing so gets you a fine (and 3 points) for speeding, but if you hadn't an accident would have been caused.

However same situation, with no chip in car and policeman following you. the a***hole gets stopped for nearly causing an accident and done for driving without due care.

Which is fair??

Yes the greens would implement the chips, but they would like to lower the limit to 30MPH on motorways and put car tax up to stupid levels.

The Tories might introduce this, however I doubt it. This is a very 'nanny state' thing and IS very much the preserve of the Socialist movement.

Originally posted by dellwear
I really don't see what the problem is with the idea of having a chip in your car, I don't see how this is 'nanny knows best'.

I have a right to go about my business without being tracked every centimetre of the way. The 'those who have done no wrong...' argument just won't wash. I have (usually ) done no wrong. I just don't trust the State with that kind of information. Why should anyone, even someone with 'reasonable cause' have the right to look in a database to find out exactly where I have been and when? I am a private citizen and what I do, and where I go, is my business and mine alone.

Aside from all the philosophical issues, as usual, those with something to hide will find away round this system. The very people this is claimed to be targeted at will not be caught out.

[Alan Waddington]

I reckon the chaps who speed excessively will get their cars chipped. Only the law abiding will be caught.

[Stuart]

Errm, unless I am missing something, the Government has commissioned a FEASIBILITY STUDY into this. That does not mean it will be implemented in the form described (if at all),

Everyone here (me included) is sounding off as though they have announced it as policy.

Originally posted by scastle
Errm, unless I am missing something, the Government has commissioned a FEASIBILITY STUDY into this. Everyone here (me included) is sounding off as though they have announced it as policy.

This is what is known in Government circles as a "trial balloon". They send up the idea and then see how people respond, then the government decide whether it's worth doing or if it's going to upset too many voters.

[Shaun]

Originally posted by cjmillsnun
Right,you have a chip in your car and some a***hole who you are alongside decides to pull into your lane (in the space you are in), you briefly accellerate taking you to 40mph (30 limit). Doing so gets you a fine (and 3 points) for speeding, but if you hadn't an accident would have been caused.

However same situation, with no chip in car and policeman following you. the a***hole gets stopped for nearly causing an accident and done for driving without due care.

Which is fair??

I'm sure you wouldn't get a letter through the door for 30 seconds just over the limit.

Even if you did, you would still be able to appeal.

Maybe there is something wrong with me but am I the only one that can see the good in "black boxes", "chipped passports", and "ID cards"???

1984 has a lot to answer for.

[Scarlett]

But the government has a certain experience of how shall we say 'bending' the information it recieves if they don't like what they hear or have decided what they want to do.

How about the Iraq war ? or even the National ID card, they were intending to lump all the (overwhelmingly negative) internet responses into 1 response and say that the majority of people wanted a national ID card.

If they want to chip cars, they'll try and find a way to justify it. I just hope that there is not a big accident opr something where the government can say 'If we had chips, the person responsible would have been bought to justice! or this wouldn't have happened. (remember Dunblane where the net result was to destroy pistol shooting as a sport but leave all the criminals with guns!)

Foutunatly for us, the ? Human rights legislation should take care of this one. It's not the 1984 Orwellian spying that will sink it but the fact that they won't be able to guarentee that the security services/police wont be able to abuse it.

When you also take into account that a) the congestion charge in London is almost at breaking point from the people that have just simply refused to pay and B) the government is just as likely to employ the same/similar laim consultancy firm to impliment this, it ain't goin' nowhere soon.

scarlett

[Scarlett]

Originally posted by dellwear
I'm sure you wouldn't get a letter through the door for 30 seconds just over the limit.

Tell me friend, would you care to phrase that as a wager ?

Originally posted by dellwear

Even if you did, you would still be able to appeal.

Yes but this takes time and money and at the end of the day, what defence can you offer to a computer record that you speeded up to 70 in a 60 zone (apart from the fact that you were overtaking a slow moving vehicle ?)

Originally posted by dellwear
Maybe there is something wrong with me but am I the only one that can see the good in "black boxes", "chipped passports", and "ID cards"???

1984 has a lot to answer for.

No, I can see the good in them. But the problem is I can also see the capacity for abuse. Do you really want the government to be able to know exactly where you are every minute of everyday? The real problem is that the people that are supposed to be restrained by these things i.e. the criminals are the same people who will in a VERY short time circumvent them (what the hell, its only one more crime, in for a penny, in for a pound) so that means that the only people that will suffer will be poepl like me and you, the police will spend even more time chasing after use for breaking some obscure by-law because that pushes the crime stats up.

Scarlett.

[Shaun]

Originally posted by Scarlett
Yes but this takes time and money and at the end of the day, what defence can you offer to a computer record that you speeded up to 70 in a 60 zone (apart from the fact that you were overtaking a slow moving vehicle ?)

If your over taking a slow moving vehicle why would you go over the limit?