The Youth of Today...

Originally Posted by Pierre

And what would you do if they refused to go to their room?

If they had a terrible tantrum?

If while you were you were trying to pick then up to get them their romm they kicked or hit you?

Or then picked up a bone china ornament and smashed it on the floor?

What would you do if you came home and found that they had had their friends round and vandalised your house?

What would you do if you found they had been stealing from you to buy cigarettes and booze?

What would you do if your kids were teenagers more that match for you physically?

What would you do if your kids just ignored you?

Some people don't have goody two shoes

Well my kids are 9 and 10 so they could have plenty of tricks up their sleeves yet but I honestly can't see me hitting them, and certainly not assaukting them. Hopefully though we've brought them up with enough respect for others that it won't be too rough a ride in later years - that is maybe the key; the early years. We were lucky (well we made sacrifices too) in that we could afford for my partner to take several years out when they were born and now I'm around cos I work from home. Whatever happens, they are not going to learn from violence.

Ianahuth - I hear what you're saying but I'm not daft enough to think my kids are purer than the driven snow. They're not bad kids but they can have their moments (as do all kids) and if they upset others - adults or children - they have to make amends and pay a price (grounding etc). That very rarely happens though. But I will also defend them when they get blamed for things that aren't their fault or when they get picked on by adults simply for kicking a ball about. Frankly, there are some miserable adults out there!!

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Perhaps TW can expand on what happened?
Escpecially when it sounds like the 13 year old involved was found guilty of a custodial offence.
Could it have been that TW was defending someone against this 13 year old?
Or are you saying that if someone under 18 attacks you, then you shouldn't defend yourself?



Ok, so what has changed to make that NSPCC statement to be completely inaccurate 50+ years ago but valid now?
How is it that millions of children were exposed to corporal punishment, but didn't go on to become violent thugs, but you slap a kid today and it'll start bullying others?

The lad was 15. He had been giving my disabled mother grief for several months, kicking and smashing my parents fence, throwing things at the windows. ONe day whilst I was there, it started, my mother against my advice went to chase them. They didnt see me come out the back door, as I got to the back gate, one had hold of my mother with his fist drwn back ready to punch her.
Needless to say he didnt get the chance, come to think of it how I didnt kill him I dont know. yes I punched him, yes I kicked him, yes I kicked him half way down the street, then started on his mates who legged it.
He called the police, and if it wasnt for a neighbour I would have been arrested, he told them I was defending my disabled mother. and if he thought I was over reacting would have stopped me.

But I guess in this world we live in, he should have been allowed to punch a disabled women, with an 80% mobility problem, brittle bones, crumbling spine thats inoperable with arthiritis both forms in every single joint of her body, and maybe it should have been made out he was good little boy, that was just highly strung, or spirited doing what boys do.
I probably was in the wrong, maybe I shouldn't have tried to kick his head from his body, perhaps I shouldn't have tried to smash my toes through his ribs. Do I regret it?

No.
__________________

Originally Posted by andyl

Those of you who think prison is easy really should visit one. I've visited three and it is frankly laughable to suggest that being detained in one is somehow easy. Add to that that prison really doesn't work as the recidivism rates are apallingly high.

National Service? I wouldn't let my kids do National Service. Not a chance.

There seems to be a lot of knee jerk reactions being espoused. I don't have easy answers but I would say that wilst crime should be punished the higher aim should be to prevent re-offending (and indeed to prevent offending in the first place) which means, fore example, providing decent education and support, inside and outside prison.

3 of my mates work as prison officers. They find the place a joke. They say its not tough, the threat of violence is there yes, but when you live by the sword......

People dont pity them, yes they do have TV's,. yes they do have 3 meals a day, yes they do have recreational facilites, yes they can get an education.
Or they can wallow in self pity, get out realise lifes harder outside, and re-offend.
IOnside you dont need:-
Money
to pay bills
pay tax
provide a roof over your head

Outside, you have to:-
pay rent or a mortgage
pay your bills
buy food
get money


a glimpse of a prison is by no means a complete view.
depending on categories of prison depends on what luxuries they are allowed. None of them have a poor standard of living. None of them are starving or malnurished.

Yes they dont have any freedom, but isnt prison a punishment? no it isnt, apparently prison is not designed to punish, its designed to rehabilitate.

No matter how you look at it, its failing as both a punishmnet and a rehabilitation.

As for being glad a 13 year old got a life sentence and not saddned by the thought he may get the **** kicked out of him inside. The little ******* aged 12, raped a woman!!!!!!
If he could do that at 12, and after being abused himself what kind of threat was he going to be when older?
Or is it a case of he'll grow up? its just a kid thing, excuse me if I'm wrong, there a serious problem when a 12 year old commits rape.
__________________

Originally Posted by Russ D

As I've said, physical punishment is IMO for the parents only. Woe betide anyone who decides to administer punishment on to my daughter like that. They'll find themselves in court faster than you can say "it's for their own good"

Russ, in a sense I understand what your saying, but by having that attitude your saying your daughter does not have to respect anyone that is a figure of authority, simply because your stance renders that authority powerless. What can they do......."I'm going to see your father" not exactly going to command an ounce of respect is it?

What if your daughter had a knife to someones throat? Would you still try and sue if they laid a finger on her?
And I pray you dont say my daughter will never do that. I'm pretty sure hitlers parents didn't think he would kill millions.

I'm sure your parenting will teach your daughter better than that, I'm not saying we should go out and belt kids for the fun of it, but in some circumstances like my own, its difficult to do anything other than smack em one.

[ian@huth]

I once worked next door to the open prison and youth offenders wing at Thorpe Arch. It wasn't a prison it was a five star holiday camp. We went inside the prison a few times when playing a team of prisoners at football and cricket and I was amazed at their standard of living, facilities and menus within their canteens. Several of the prisoners said they would re-offend when they got out as it was a much better life in there.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Russ, in a sense I understand what your saying, but by having that attitude your saying your daughter does not have to respect anyone that is a figure of authority, simply because your stance renders that authority powerless. What can they do......."I'm going to see your father" not exactly going to command an ounce of respect is it?

What if your daughter had a knife to someones throat? Would you still try and sue if they laid a finger on her?
And I pray you dont say my daughter will never do that. I'm pretty sure hitlers parents didn't think he would kill millions.

I'm sure your parenting will teach your daughter better than that, I'm not saying we should go out and belt kids for the fun of it, but in some circumstances like my own, its difficult to do anything other than smack em one.

There was an incident about 18 months ago in a neighbouring town, one teenager went to the local travelling funfair to look for a murder victim. She decided on one and stabbed her many times in an out of control frenzy, luckily for the victim she survived to live after the attack.

The most amazing thing was the victim was saved by a guy who waded in and not necessarily very delicately disabled the girl attempting to murder the other. The real amazing thing though was the hostility the guy got from all the onlookers who complained about him attacking the girl who was stabbing her victim within inches of death.

The guy was apparently afraid for his own life, as the crowd took all the play away from the knife attack and vented anger at him!

What a strange would we live in, perhaps if I witness a similar incident I should turn the other cheek and walk away ignoring that it's happening.


Then again ignoring things that happen is a Liberal approach.

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

These are a bit more than just 'labels' - they're properly diagnosed conditions. I'll have to admit to never having heard of 'school phobia', but I suspect it's some sort of psychosis, which is not the same as a lifelong disability like Aspergers.

That's not to excuse verbal or physical abuse from any pupil, but a distinction has to be made between - you can't just lump the kids with special needs in with the trouble makers.
__________________

Unfortunately they get all get lumped into Special Needs and are 'statemented' in just the same way.
I personally would love to take the badly behaved out of the equation and just leave those with a genuine learning difficulty getting statemented.There might be more money spent on them in that case...

[Escapee]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4355297.stm

Originally Posted by Escapee

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4355297.stm

Yes, he looks full of remorse...

Wow, a 4 month detention for breaking his ASBO.

To be honest, what really boggles my mind is that people wont or cant take a stand against this sort of little scrote. There is no way on this earth I'd have 14 year old turn my neighbourhood into a ghetto, where he could rum riot. IMHO there are times when the community need to grow a f***ing backbone .

Originally Posted by Earl of Bronze

Wow, a 4 month detention for breaking his ASBO.

To be honest, what really boggles my mind is that people wont or cant take a stand against this sort of little scrote. There is no way on this earth I'd have 14 year old turn my neighbourhood into a ghetto, where he could rum riot. IMHO there are times when the community need to grow a f***ing backbone .

Sad but true.

[Doofy]

[QUOTE=Tuftus]Sad but true.[/QUO
Very true but if the community suddenly grew a back bonethey would be in the wrong also sad but true. Recently in this area a group of youths about 6 or 7 in the age range of 14 to 15 thought it would be quite funny to hang around the shopping centre and use local pensioners as goal posts . They should have been in school but thy have school phobia so they can be forgiven for that. When the local police arrived they gave the usual taunts and insults and foul language, where they pick up that language from is beyond me it wasnt in school cos they never go. However the long suffering police woman had enough of this and confiscated the football. Cue the biggest police enquiry round here for a while, after one of the parents complained about the officer STEALING there football, long story short officer suspended while they carried out the investigtion, and one bunch, of out of control litttle ba****ds laughing there heads off. Absoultely crackers when there rights come above the safety of some pensioners. All that is needed is a dark alley and the little pieces of **** having some discipline or a taste of there own medicine kicking into them. There would not be a shortage of volunteers around here thats for sure.

Originally Posted by Doofy

Very true but if the community suddenly grew a back bonethey would be in the wrong also sad but true. Recently in this area a group of youths about 6 or 7 in the age range of 14 to 15 thought it would be quite funny to hang around the shopping centre and use local pensioners as goal posts . They should have been in school but thy have school phobia so they can be forgiven for that. When the local police arrived they gave the usual taunts and insults and foul language, where they pick up that language from is beyond me it wasnt in school cos they never go. However the long suffering police woman had enough of this and confiscated the football. Cue the biggest police enquiry round here for a while, after one of the parents complained about the officer STEALING there football, long story short officer suspended while they carried out the investigtion, and one bunch, of out of control litttle ba****ds laughing there heads off. Absoultely crackers when there rights come above the safety of some pensioners. All that is needed is a dark alley and the little pieces of **** having some discipline or a taste of there own medicine kicking into them. There would not be a shortage of volunteers around here thats for sure.

I see your point and I feel your rage.

It makes you wonder where the justice is in society.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Russ, in a sense I understand what your saying, but by having that attitude your saying your daughter does not have to respect anyone that is a figure of authority, simply because your stance renders that authority powerless. What can they do......."I'm going to see your father" not exactly going to command an ounce of respect is it?

What if your daughter had a knife to someones throat? Would you still try and sue if they laid a finger on her?
And I pray you dont say my daughter will never do that. I'm pretty sure hitlers parents didn't think he would kill millions.

I'm sure your parenting will teach your daughter better than that, I'm not saying we should go out and belt kids for the fun of it, but in some circumstances like my own, its difficult to do anything other than smack em one.

As I've said numerous times before, there's a difference between assault and self defence. She can easily learn to respect authority without them physically punishing her.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Russ, in a sense I understand what your saying, but by having that attitude your saying your daughter does not have to respect anyone that is a figure of authority, simply because your stance renders that authority powerless. What can they do......."I'm going to see your father" not exactly going to command an ounce of respect is it?

TW, first can I thank you for explaining what happened with the 15 year old.
I doubt he'll try the same thing again.

Secondly, with regards to the above, I'm pretty sure that if Russ', mine or your child was told "I'm going to see your father" after being caught doing something wrong/illegal etc then they'd be quaking in their shoes knowing that they would get a punishment when they got home.

Unfortunatley, too many parents refuse to deal with their children in such a situation, choosing rather to take it out on the person reporting the offence.
I know one parent came to school and threatened a teacher with physical violence because his child had been given a detention!

[Escapee]

There was a news item on the front page of my local newspaper this week, about youths going on a rampage last weekend. The newspaper described the damage as hundreds of pounds worth!

I was speaking to an uncle earlier on, who lives right in the middle of where it all happened. He said there were about forty teenagers, most were probably still school kids going on a rampage. He said people were afraid to leave their houses, and he was watching from the window of his flat as they ripped doors of garages, smashed the roofs of the garages onto cars, ripped drain pipes off houses, smashed windows on houses and totally smashed the local convenience store to pieces. Then they proceeded to smash all the windows on the church, threw bottles and stones at passing cars.

The local councillor is Quote "Asking for the do-gooders to stop and some action to start"

Kids eh, always been the same. Me and my mates used to smash up the neighbours property ourselves....not

[deadite66]

time for a real "battle royale"