The Youth of Today...

[seaneeboy]

Defense is beating someone who's attacking you back.

Hoping someone aged 13 gets beaten up in jail is not defence, it's seeking vengence.

My point about the 50 years difference is that we can't simplify it into "Corporal punichment = well behaved children, alternative punishment = unruly" - there are many many many more factors to explain it... which I'll admit even I can't fully.

I would say, however, it's probably quite naive to suggest there was no bullying, or a dramatically lower level of bullying 50 years ago - one of the many changes are that these issues are spotted, children have become more integral members of society - their purchasing influencing force alone makes them absolutely essential to the current society (not something I neccessarily agree with, just adding another pointer).

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Escapee

I certainly never said physical punishment should be handed out by a stranger, but on the other hand are we to stand still and let a 15 year old physically attack us in the street?

I certainly wouldn't, if they're big enough to have a go, they're big enough to suffer the consequences.

Russ, Would you blame an innocent person doing this if you had an unruly 15 year old who attacked/mugged them?
Are any of the the liberals saying we cannot hit a 15 year old who is trying to mug us, remember a well developed 15 year old is physically capable of doing a lot of damage or even killing someone.

Defending yourself is one thing. Dishing out your own form of punishment is another.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by seaneeboy

Defense is beating someone who's attacking you back.

Hoping someone aged 13 gets beaten up in jail is not defence, it's seeking vengence.

Vengance is human though.

Originally Posted by seaneeboy

My point about the 50 years difference is that we can't simplify it into "Corporal punichment = well behaved children, alternative punishment = unruly" - there are many many many more factors to explain it... which I'll admit even I can't fully.

But the NSPCC is saying mild physical punishment = violent children/bullies

It's as though they have a very patronising view of children that they are unable to tell that a slap as punishment is just punishment, not validation that any violence is allowed

I believe that we are in the middle of a social engineering program with those who think that by eliminating any form of physical punishment for children that we will eliminate all violence.

We shall see what we will see.Already children have become more unruly in the classroom.Not all the unruly element come from poor deprived backgrounds either.Quite a few have good homes with caring parents,and theoretically know right from wrong.It's just that no one is saying no emphatically enough.

However this is still a minority of the population and the world we live in are still the safest it has been in the last 1000 years.

Vengeance is not human.

[seaneeboy]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Vengance is human though.

If we take for a second that as accepted (which I don't really) does that mean it's excusable though? It's certainly not legal... An eye for an eye and the land will soon be blind (to paraphrase!)

But the NSPCC is saying mild physical punishment = violent children/bullies

It's as though they have a very patronising view of children that they are unable to tell that a slap as punishment is just punishment, not validation that any violence is allowed

I'm not saying I'm 100% with NSPCC's views - If it comes to "Which statement do you agree with" though, I'm more likely to go to that side than the alternative.

I can certainly see why people would find them patronising, but with any luck there are parents out there who are taking it too far who will realise this and get some of the help they're being offered.

Sean

[AndrewJ]

Simply remove all physcial punishment, and make it by word of mouth, word of mouth of how harsh prision is, and that if they are caught breaking the law, or being anti-social its one ASBO on them, and then a nice 2year spell inside, with education for under 18's.

I would have it harsh Army camp like, but I would not have physical punishment more, soiltary and uncomfortable, such as single cells, with bars as windows a single radiator, and a blanket and a bible ( or whichever reglious preference ) and a single bed, with a toilet.

This would shock them more, right now they know the jails are cushy and most of there "hood" or the big dude at top who is 'ard etc, says its easy and kewl inside, would soon have a shock when he comes out and is well and truely broken from 2years of no telly, no cars, no snooker no nothing, other then a education, being taught respect to elders, manners, and mainly to speak english instead of this crap chav talk they have.

Thats my own view though.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by seaneeboy

If we take for a second that as accepted (which I don't really) does that mean it's excusable though? It's certainly not legal... An eye for an eye and the land will soon be blind (to paraphrase!)

But it is not illegal to wish further punishment on someone for a crime they committed.
Acting on vengance is unacceptable, but to want vengance is most certainly human.

Originally Posted by seaneeboy

I'm not saying I'm 100% with NSPCC's views - If it comes to "Which statement do you agree with" though, I'm more likely to go to that side than the alternative.

Even if the evidence doesn't support it?


Anyway, how about bringing back national service?
I must admit, being only 27, I haven't much knowledge on the subject, but after talking with people who have been through it, it does seem to have been a possitive influence.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by AndrewJames

Simply remove all physcial punishment, and make it by word of mouth, word of mouth of how harsh prision is, and that if they are caught breaking the law, or being anti-social its one ASBO on them, and then a nice 2year spell inside, with education for under 18's.

I would have it harsh Army camp like, but I would not have physical punishment more, soiltary and uncomfortable, such as single cells, with bars as windows a single radiator, and a blanket and a bible ( or whichever reglious preference ) and a single bed, with a toilet.

This would shock them more, right now they know the jails are cushy and most of there "hood" or the big dude at top who is 'ard etc, says its easy and kewl inside, would soon have a shock when he comes out and is well and truely broken from 2years of no telly, no cars, no snooker no nothing, other then a education, being taught respect to elders, manners, and mainly to speak english instead of this crap chav talk they have.

Thats my own view though.

Well said that man. KIds today IMO know there is very little you can do they have rights and boy do they know it. Some of todays yoof culture need a good quick sharp shock.

Those of you who think prison is easy really should visit one. I've visited three and it is frankly laughable to suggest that being detained in one is somehow easy. Add to that that prison really doesn't work as the recidivism rates are apallingly high.

National Service? I wouldn't let my kids do National Service. Not a chance.

There seems to be a lot of knee jerk reactions being espoused. I don't have easy answers but I would say that wilst crime should be punished the higher aim should be to prevent re-offending (and indeed to prevent offending in the first place) which means, fore example, providing decent education and support, inside and outside prison.

[AndrewJ]

Those of you who think prison is easy really should visit one. I've visited three and it is frankly laughable to suggest that being detained in one is somehow easy. Add to that that prison really doesn't work as the recidivism rates are apallingly high.

This was my point prisions need to be made tougher, with less luxurys for the prisioners, make it more harsh a enviroment.

National Service? I wouldn't let my kids do National Service. Not a chance.

That is your personal choice, I think the offer of a Army training course for those in Jail of suitable age could work in the favor of the people in making them then learn how to be a man and have some flaming respect for elders.

There seems to be a lot of knee jerk reactions being espoused. I don't have easy answers but I would say that wilst crime should be punished the higher aim should be to prevent re-offending (and indeed to prevent offending in the first place) which means, fore example, providing decent education and support, inside and outside prison.

Again this is my point, inside the prision there would be a offer of Army traning to the youths of suitable age and build, both physically and mentally.

Also education would be a must, as part of being in Jail they would endure a rougher life then they do now with bared windows etc, and they WOULD have to attend classes, and actually learn basic maths,english etc, and once they are released they are put on a probation within college/school, until they make certain grades and get a job.

If they re-offend within this period or afterwards with it being on a record it would be simply back in and twice as much as before until they learn.

However if they are a persistant drug abuser or other low life moron **** who just terrorise the streets and say and do anything to get out of the new tougher jails there would be a nasty suprise which they would be away off since there first offence.

If after 2times you re-offend making a 3rd crime, you are then given life. As it shows you have no will to contend to the rules of right and wrong, and are truely a menance to society.

This then would mean if he/she showed regret after a set time, and still attended classes a commision or board of some kind would then come up with a idea for release or to keep them within jail.

This is my humble view though.

Originally Posted by andyl

the higher aim should be to prevent re-offending (and indeed to prevent offending in the first place)

Agreed with you on that, however the punishment needs to match the crime!

How often these days do you see an article on the news and when you get to the end of it and find out what punishment was meted out you think to yourself - "well they got of bloody lightly!"

Some one I used to know used to go out stealing cars etc, and whenever he was sent down he used the opportunity to use the gym and build himself up and 'network' with other undesirables to be more efficient when he got out again! He certainly was not the 'ard one at the top but he did always say 'doing bird is easy'...

[Doofy]

Punishment to fit the crime a concept that should be enforced everytime, my niece just got mugged for the contents of her handbag. (not a lot) He was apprehended after mugging 4 other women the same evening all to feed his habit. And what was this low life smackhead *******s punishment, 12 months bound over, this is on top of the 6 months binding over that he had to go due to his last mugging crime spree. So him and people like him are free to roam the streets mugging and burgaling as they go while the victims have to live with and suffer the consequences. In reality he and others like him should be thrown away for a long period of time, away from law abiding people.

Originally Posted by Doofy

Punishment to fit the crime a concept that should be enforced everytime, my niece just got mugged for the contents of her handbag. (not a lot) He was apprehended after mugging 4 other women the same evening all to feed his habit. And what was this low life smackhead *******s punishment, 12 months bound over, this is on top of the 6 months binding over that he had to go due to his last mugging crime spree. So him and people like him are free to roam the streets mugging and burgaling as they go while the victims have to live with and suffer the consequences. In reality he and others like him should be thrown away for a long period of time, away from law abiding people.

This is precisely my point.

Originally Posted by Doofy

Punishment to fit the crime a concept that should be enforced everytime, my niece just got mugged for the contents of her handbag. (not a lot) He was apprehended after mugging 4 other women the same evening all to feed his habit. And what was this low life smackhead *******s punishment, 12 months bound over, this is on top of the 6 months binding over that he had to go due to his last mugging crime spree. So him and people like him are free to roam the streets mugging and burgaling as they go while the victims have to live with and suffer the consequences. In reality he and others like him should be thrown away for a long period of time, away from law abiding people.

I'm in no way excusing the crimes but might have been an idea to get him on a drugs rehabilitation programme. So much crime is drug related and yet drug programme places are as rare as rocking horse dooberry. The stupid thing is you often have to get into the Criminal Justice System to have a chance of being offered treatment (and even then you're lucky). This is why I (and a magistrate friend) believe we should legalise and control the distribution of drugs so that we can remove such a major cause of crime, particularly burglary and theft.

Throwing people away for a long period of time will not only cost us a lot of money but not prove effective in rehabilitation (incidenally, did you know they still have sewing workshops in even the highest category prisons. How on earth is that skill going to be useful to people when they are released?!)

If we blindly seek vengeance for crime but in doing so fail to halt it, we are doing no-one any favours.