religion is 'clean' ?

kronas · 17-08-2003, 16:54

so whats going on here then.............

a vatican document has been found to contain commands to 'cover up' allegations of sexual abuse by followers

the US lawyer daniel shea said "the 1962 Vatican instruction was "a devious attempt to conceal criminal conduct"

the document was sent to every bishop in the world and the recievers of the document were told to store it under lock and key

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3157555.stm

Russ · 17-08-2003, 17:48

I think a more accurate title for this thread would have been Catholicism is 'clean'.

I can change it for you if you like.

17-08-2003, 17:59

Perhaps Kronie was hoping to open the debate to include other denominations or religions too.... The Roman Catholic Church isn't the only religious organisation to have skeletons in it's cupboard... granted the Roman Catholic cupboard is more of a fathomless pit but most people/organisation have secrets they'd rather keep secret for various reasons...

But then again... maybe he was bored

:p

Russ · 17-08-2003, 18:02

Yes but his link relates to a story about the Catholic faith, yet the title of the thread gives the impression that it's about religion in general.

It's like Manchester United being caught up in a scandal in match-fixing and then saying that 'football is corrupt'.

Ramrod · 17-08-2003, 18:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ D
I think a more accurate title for this thread would have been Catholicism is 'clean'.

I can change it for you if you like.

Ramrod · 17-08-2003, 18:12

Quote:

Originally posted by kink
But then again... maybe he was bored :p

Ramrod · 17-08-2003, 18:16

Quote:

The Vatican's 1983 Code of Canon Law says a priest found to have abused a minor can be defrocked.

Shouldn't that say 'must be defrocked'?

17-08-2003, 18:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ D
Yes but his link relates to a story about the Catholic faith, yet the title of the thread gives the impression that it's about religion in general.

It's like Manchester United being caught up in a scandal in match-fixing and then saying that 'football is corrupt'.

Well, i saw it as a question.... Is religion clean? An example of non-cleaniness was given, which happened to be about the Roman Catholic Church.... which is constanly in the news for it's immoral behaviour.... i was simply saying that perhaps Kronas was hinting that it's something that isn't only a catholic problem and that this happens elsewhere..... or was asking if it was a universal problem...
And the example you give of Manchester United and football being corrupt is perfectly valid for my point.... if it happens in one place, then why not query it happening elsewhere with other clubs?
It's not saying that it does happen.... just trying to find out if it exists.
Kronas didn't make a statement about religion.... he asked a question.

That's all

Bifta · 17-08-2003, 18:18

It's bugger all to do with religion anyway, the 'religion' never buggered small boys, I think that was down to the dirty b*stard priests, but, as someone stated already, it's not just catholic priests that have a liking for children, maybe other religious leaders are just a lot better at concealing the antics of their priest/vicars/nuns/nutcases.

17-08-2003, 18:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramrod
Shouldn't that say 'must be defrocked'?

Maybe it's just an option...... to castration

Doubt it though.... he'd be farmed out to the developing countries where they hope no-one would notice his behaviour

Russ · 17-08-2003, 18:23

Quote:

if it happens in one place, then why not query it happening elsewhere with other clubs?

Good point.

Quote:

It's not saying that it does happen.... just trying to find out if it exists.
Kronas didn't make a statement about religion.... he asked a question.

As long as that's all it was. Too many people think all religions are the same and if something relates to one faith then it's concurrent with others, which as all sensible people know is not the case.

The Vatican and Catholicism means little or nothing to me other than being an organisation of people who also follow Jesus. Their 'rules' and views do not apply to Christianity or religion in general.

Quote:

It's bugger all to do with religion anyway, the 'religion' never buggered small boys, I think that was down to the dirty b*stard priests, but, as someone stated already, it's not just catholic priests that have a liking for children

Crudely put but spot on

kronas · 17-08-2003, 19:26

the fact of the matter is in any religion has corruption or underhanded actions im not saying it exists everywhere but it does go on

Theodoric · 17-08-2003, 19:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ D
Yes but his link relates to a story about the Catholic faith, yet the title of the thread gives the impression that it's about religion in general.

It's like Manchester United being caught up in a scandal in match-fixing and then saying that 'football is corrupt'.

I sometimes feel a little puzzled by the way that the more evangelical Protestants seem to try very hard to write the Catholic Church out of Christianity. As far as my limited knowledge goes, evangelicals seem to manage to accept the church up to about the time of Augustine in the 5th Century (Calvinists especially make a great play of Augustine's theology). From then until the Reformation, give or take the odd Cathar, Lollard or Hussite heretic, the Catholic church was the only church in Western Europe. So, for a period of over 1000 years God appears to have been quite prepared to tolerate this "false" church. Why?

Stuart · 17-08-2003, 20:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ D
As long as that's all it was. Too many people think all religions are the same and if something relates to one faith then it's concurrent with others, which as all sensible people know is not the case.

While I do agree that religion is used as an excuse for a lot of things (including child abuse and war) and it shouldn't be, There have been people from other faiths caught abusing children.

**Chris** · 17-08-2003, 20:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Theodoric
So, for a period of over 1000 years God appears to have been quite prepared to tolerate this "false" church. Why?

God has tolerated a lot more than the wayward Roman Church and for a lot longer than 1,000 years. To answer your question fully would be impossibly difficult as I would need God's overall perspective on the whole sweep of human history if I were going to try to explain his vast wisdom. All I can say is that God:

1. Has had his followers, and therefore a witness to his truth, in every generation.
2. Is extremely patient - 'slow to anger' and 'pouring blessings on the children and grandchildren of those who are obedient to him'.

Sorry for the overtly religious language but it was an overtly religious question ...

To address your other point, the Reformation, and other 'revivals' and 'awakenings' that have happened since, have been characterised by a desire to 'do' Christianity as it is written in the Bible, and not as it has been modified by 1,500 years of Roman church tradition and superstition. It is unsurprising then that Christians who meet for Sunday worship in a plain hall with a beat-up piano find it hard to see themselves as in the same religion as one that dresses priests up in robes (there is no distinct priesthood set apart from the rest of the believers in the new testament), waves incence all over the place and turns the breaking of bread and pouring of wine, intended by Jesus as a simple illustration of his sacrifice, into a major mysterious ritual full of superstitious nonsense (none of which is in the Bible).