Israel's losing the plot

Originally posted by timewarrior2001
Israel is actually a false state anyway, didnt the UN set it up in 1947 or something?
Sure that British troops had somethign to do with the place.
Anyway I am sick of hearing that we should pity the jews because of the holocaust, well I'm sorry I wont pity any people that are capapble of as much bloodshed as the israelis are.
What are they trying to achieve? their own holocaust using the palestinians? After all they stole a lot of land form palestine and now refuse to acknowledge the palestinian state.''...
.

Check your history, and there are plenty of history books available. Israel came into existence in 1948 following years of struggle. The holocaust saw the deaths of six million plus jews by a German regime that committed horrible crimes against humanity.

The palestinians had a chance to build their own state in 1948 and have had that repeated. Instead their leadership chose to exploit anti-jewish hatred and accept funding from arab states that play the anti-Israeli card. palestinian propaganda promotes hatred against the jews all this is unacceptable behaviour.

One cannot agree with every decision the Israeli government makes but it is a democracy and still the only middle eastern democratic state. Israel is entitled to defend itself and take whatever measures are needed.

Whilst the palestinians engage in cowardly, homicidal bombings peace will be harder to find. By the way don't you notice how the leaders of palestinian terror groups enjoy western lifestyles, they love their 4x4s and send young palestinians to their deaths whist the leaders themseves continue to enjoy their own selfish lives.

I'm all in favour of peace but the palestinians themselves must realise they will get nowhere with homicidal killings and learn to compromise.

Originally posted by Mark W
As for suicide attacks......im sure if the palastinians were getting 3 billion dollars in military aid from one of those meddiling countries like isreal does, im sure they would be fighting for the homeland in a rather different way

We were talking about how they sent these mongified plebs over everytime piece is in progress. Ie they dont want piece so what the hell has your 3 billion dollers got to do with it. Their terrerists in my book. Would you really give them money knowing just how braindead they are. Sending people out to kill themselve's believing their going to a better place blah blah blah

[Mark W]

Originally posted by Gogogo
One cannot agree with every decision the Israeli government makes but it is a democracy and still the only middle eastern democratic state. Israel is entitled to defend itself and take whatever measures are needed.

I think youll find that lebanon, egypt and syria are democracies too....
so israel can take whatever measures it needs to defend itself? but palestine cannot? so they just have to put up with israeli curfews in THEIR cities, israeli armour and troops in THEIR cities, assassanations by israelies - often causing ALOT of 'collateral' damage - in THEIR cities, and having their houses bulldozed and having jewish settlements build on THEIR land? to fight againsed that is wrong??

Whilst the palestinians engage in cowardly, homicidal bombings peace will be harder to find.

As opposed to israeli forces attacking via helcopter gunships and supersonic fighter jets againsed people who cant fight back?
palestine dont have a standing army - israel have made damn sure of that - so they have to fight back anyway they can.....
....yes, this causes terror for israelies, but then the palestinian people live under the fear of israeli occupation every day too.....

By the way don't you notice how the leaders of palestinian terror groups enjoy western lifestyles, they love their 4x4s and send young palestinians to their deaths whist the leaders themseves continue to enjoy their own selfish lives.

what a pointless statement. that is the nature of leaders. at the last gulf war i didnt see blair or bush slogging it out on the frontline with the troops did you? rather they were being driven round in limos going to state dinners.....

I'm all in favour of peace but the palestinians themselves must realise they will get nowhere with homicidal killings and learn to compromise.

compromise???? they are second class citizens in their own land...they have only the rights the israelies decide to give them, they have their houses and land taken from them by force to make way for israeli settlements, they suffer daily killings and murder at the hands of israeli deaths and when they try to fight againsed this - because diplomacy didnt work - they get branded as terrorists...

some facts taken from HERE

since the second uprising there have been between 2,386 and 2,532 palestinian deaths (and that does NOT include those killed whilst engaged in military action againsed israelies , and between 23,094 and 41,000 + injuries

as opposed to 742 to 806 israeli deaths, and 5,586 injuries

.....yet the popular belief is its the israelies that are being murdered en masse.....

[darkangel]

Originally posted by Gogogo
Check your history, and there are plenty of history books available. Israel came into existence in 1948 following years of struggle.

u want to read those book yourself Israel committed horrific human rights abuses at terrorist action in expanding their state in the early years and are still committing those acts,ffs Israels prime minister is wanted for war crimes etc in several countries

[darkangel]

Originally posted by Defiant
We were talking about how they sent these mongified plebs over everytime piece is in progress. Ie they dont want piece so what the hell has your 3 billion dollers got to do with it. Their terrerists in my book. Would you really give them money knowing just how braindead they are. Sending people out to kill themselve's believing their going to a better place blah blah blah

unfortunately they believe to highlight their cause they must take these actions it would be very easy for the world to forget the Palestinians if they weren't attacking Israel, i am of course against all attacks on civilian targets in Israel, imo their is no difference between the state sponsored terrorism of Israel and some of the members of the PLO

[Mark W]

Originally posted by darkangel
ffs Israels prime minister is wanted for war crimes etc in several countries

http://www.zpub.com/un/wanted-as.html

[darkangel]

Originally posted by Mark W
http://www.zpub.com/un/wanted-as.html

yep i met the slimey little troll in 79

Originally posted by Mark W
I think youll find that lebanon, egypt and syria are democracies too....

Mark W. Wow, I think you are stetching reality a little, Israel is a parliamentary democracy, ministers are responsible to the Knesset and ultimately to the electorate. What you have in Egypt and Lebanon is a fake resemblance to democracy but still far from any parliamentary democracy. Syria is Assad's toy all but a military regime.

I think if palestinian terrorist engage in homicidal murders then they must expect the Israeli army to do its duty in tracking down these cowardly murderers and bring them to justice.

4X4s! No, I'm serious, palestinian terrorist leaders will never be the ones who will carry out homicidal killings these will done by simple minded palestinian fools. palestinian terror leaders are not elected representatives and Bush/Blair have been elected by their repespective constituencies and are accountable for their actions when the next elections come.

I'm astonished by the hatred for Israel that I read in these posts.

darkangel, I can assure you I've read very widely, I see little substance in your allegations re: Israeli actions relating to war crimes or whatever, perhaps you would like to enlighten us all. As I've said before I don't agree with every action by the Israeli state and indeed Prime Minister Sharon, Sharon whatever may have happened in the past has sincerely sought peace and risks his own personal reputation with his party.

In the end peace will only come as long as the palestinian leadership recognise that their cowardly terror campaigns must end and accept the reality that Israel is not going to go away.
A new palestinian leadership following the end of arafat, committed to the recognition of Israel's right to exist is the only way forward.

Otherwise we just agree to differ.

[darkangel]

Originally posted by Gogogo

I'm astonished by the hatred for Israel that I read in these posts.

darkangel, I can assure you I've read very widely, I see little substance in your allegations re: Israeli actions relating to war crimes or whatever, perhaps you would like to enlighten us all. As I've said before I don't agree with every action by the Israeli state and indeed Prime Minister Sharon, Sharon whatever may have happened in the past has sincerely sought peace and risks his own personal reputation with his party.

In the end peace will only come as long as the palestinian leadership recognise that their cowardly terror campaigns must end and accept the reality that Israel is not going to go away.
A new palestinian leadership following the end of arafat, committed to the recognition of Israel's right to exist is the only way forward.

Otherwise we just agree to differ.

well if you've read as much as u think u've been wearing Rose tinted glasses how do u justify the Israel army shelling and bombing civilian targets?
Sharon has to give the impression that hes doing his best for peace so he can justify the murder of civilians he's risking nothing.
if Hitler or Mussolini or Stalin where still alive would you forgive them?
could u explain to us your experience of the situation

[Mark W]

Originally posted by Gogogo
[B]
I'm astonished by the hatred for Israel that I read in these posts.

not hatred of israel, just of their actions and attitudes towards palastinians...

to justify what i feel. i was born in lebanon, and was there when israel invaded, with the aim to murder as many palastinian refugees as they could before withdrawing. i saw with my own eyes the actions of the israeli troops, and the wholesale murder they commited - all with the blessing of the states...

darkangel, I can assure you I've read very widely, I see little substance in your allegations re: Israeli actions relating to war crimes or whatever, perhaps you would like to enlighten us all.

http://come.to/qana
http://www.iacenter.org/jenin_photos.htm
http://free.freespeech.org/americans...imesJenin.html
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevese...WarCrimes.html
http://www.iacenter.org/palest_coi.htm

that was 30 seconds doing a google search.....

Prime Minister Sharon, Sharon whatever may have happened in the past has sincerely sought peace and risks his own personal reputation with his party.

its all very well saying the past is the past, but you REALLY should know what the leader of the israeli govt has spent his whole life doing before deciding how sincere his words to the press might be....

http://www.geocities.com/indictsharon/bio.html

darkangel. I cannot never forgive people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and other mass murderers. No, arafat and palestinian terrorist leaders have more more in common with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot. arafat like his terrorist friends does not believe in a free press, does not believe in democracy, does not believe in toleration.

Wearing, rose coloured glasses, well those that study pro-palestinian proganda are more fitting to that description. I have said that I don't neccessarily agree with everything the Israeli government or army do, but as palestinian leaders are failing to compromise for peace what else can anyone do!

Mark W. I'm not interested in reading pro-palestinian propaganda.

In the end there must be a genuine effort to find a peaceful solution to the problems of the middle east. It is encouraging that a number of arab states have to some extent gone some way to meet the peace initiative. It is tragic that so many must continue to die for the vanity of palestinian terrorist leaders.

Prime Minister Sharon has made his move by agreeing to promote peace but it's obvious that the palestinian terrorist leaders don't want peace. Frankly, until the palestinian people themselves understand that homicidal killings of Israeli citizens will never bring peace it looks as if peace will have to wait a long time.

[Mark W]

Originally posted by Gogogo
Mark W. I'm not interested in reading pro-palestinian propaganda.

well, how about the official UN report on the israeli shelling of a UN base in southern lebanon? or are the UN to be dismissed as producing 'pro-palestinian propaganda'?

http://leb.net/bcome/leb/qana1.html

if i may offer some extracts?

the pattern of impacts in the Qana area makes it unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of technical and/or procedural errors

I view with utmost gravity the shelling of the Fijian position, as I would hostilities directed against any United Nations peace-keeping position. But this incident is all the more serious because civilians, including women and children, had sought refuge in the United Nations compound at Qana.

During the shelling, there was a perceptible shift in the weight of fire from the mortar site to the United Nations compound

and the findings? it was the view of Franklin VAN KAPPEN
Major-General (Dutch Army), Military Adviser to the UN that the IDF did knowingly and deliberatly target the UN base with over 40 HE shells, causing the deaths of over 100 civilians and a few UN personnel

Mark W. Before we ourselves leave to enjoy the sunshine: I feel looking over your various posts and mine I think it significant that whilst the word peace - PEACE - is in every posting of mine it is totally absent in your contributions, not once have you mentioned the word - PEACE -.

I'm sure most palestinians and most Israeli citizens desire peace. It is only the small minded palestinian terrorist bullies who want to continue war. The current palestinian authority is engaged in dealing with the palestinian terrorist leaders but we must see more positive palestinian efforts for peace. Isarael is dealing with illegal settlements I would have thought a positive sign.

So, let's dump carefully rehearsed palestinian terrorist arguments and instead why not support the peace process, surely that is in everyones interest and give a chance to end the bitterness and violence.

[darkangel]

Originally posted by Gogogo
Mark W. Before we ourselves leave to enjoy the sunshine: I feel looking over your various posts and mine I think it significant that whilst the word peace - PEACE - is in every posting of mine it is totally absent in your contributions, not once have you mentioned the word - PEACE -.

u can't have peace while an supposedly legitimate government attack clearly civilians targets I've yet to see you address any of these arguments?

Originally posted by Gogogo
I'm sure most Palestinians and most Israeli citizens desire peace. It is only the small minded Palestinian terrorist bullies who want to continue war. The current Palestinian authority is engaged in dealing with the Palestinian terrorist leaders but we must see more positive Palestinian efforts for peace. Israel is dealing with illegal settlements I would have thought a positive sign.

I'm also sure that Israeli citizens do not want to see their army being used to murder Palestinians and protesters for political and religious reasons, agreed that the Palestine authority must curb attacks on civilian targets in that they are not doing anywhere near enough, as far as settlements go the Israeli government is doing very little to stop settlement building on occupied Palestinian land any action that are being taken are to keep up appearance only, remember it's easy to call someone a terrorist when they aren't in an f16 or a tank

Originally posted by Gogogo

So, let's dump carefully rehearsed palestinian terrorist arguments and instead why not support the peace process, surely that is in everyones interest and give a chance to end the bitterness and violence.

you need effort to made on both sides in order for this chance to proceed, progress needs to be made on both sides with alot more effort made by the PLO and the Palestinian authority, Israel needs to make sure that the religious zealot within are not allowed to spread the racist hate and war mongering they are pushing a present

Excuse me darkangel, but what agenda are you promoting? "supposedly legitimate government"
you seem to have difficulty with accepting the Israeli government as legitimatelly elected. I think you'll find it is indeed a legitimate government elected fairly and freely and answerable to its electorate. It's right wing, I don't like it, but it's legitimate. Incidentally, remember arafat rejected a good deal from former Prime Minister Barak.


There is no point in venturing into the chronicle of events, what matters is now is what are the palestinians going to do in taking up the opportunity for negotiating peace with Israel?


The palestinian terrorist leaders hide amongst the ordinary civilian population, if the IDF takes the war to them fine, the palestinian terrorist leaders cannot be allowed to cowardly
hide whilst enjoying the fruits of a western life style and then complain if the IDF has just missed killing them, after all they want to go to paradise and yet whinge when the heat
gets too much for them!


So, in your view the palestinian terrorists can carry on with their homicidal killings but the IDF must simply look the other way and do nothing. No state anywhere will allow criminal gangs to engage in terror without responding and hunting down the killers.


The Israeli government has responded to the current peace initiative, it has begun to dismantle illegal settlements but clearly if the palestinian terrorist gangsters want to keep lauching homicidal bombers what do you expect? Yes, let there be peace but this must be negotiated between the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority and there must be a clear commitment to peace by the plalestinians most of all by arafat and the palestinian terrorist leaders.


Despite Palestinian claims of a temporary ceasefire, the past week has witnessed two suicide bombings with many more warnings of terror attacks received by Israeli intelligence. Israel
is committed to peace and continues to carry out confidence-building measures towards the Palestinian people. Israel now looks to the Palestinian Authority to dismantle the terrorist
infrastructure which remains the main obstacle to peace.

Prime Minister Sharon is willing to promote a peace settlement, but considering Israel is facing the daily threat of and actual palestinian terrorist homicidal killings, for any government it would be hard to keep on track.