9pm curfew

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Damien

Exactly my point

That also raises another problem. Youths (like me, although i am 18 so it wont apply) will be arrested for commiting no crime other than exercising their right to freedom.

i dount the police will be heavy handed if there is a group of you then yes they will most likely question you, however the stipulation stated is that: IF there is more than one person with you they have the right to arrest you.

Originally Posted by Damien

:
Most of this kids will have never harmed another human being in their life and have commited no crimes but will get arrested and have a criminal record for going out with their friends (which you do when you are young). I have relatives and friends at this age who dont hurt, scare or damage anyone or anything. Why should they be arrested for going outside with their friends.

if you have a genuine reason to be out there i expect commons ens eto prevail, if worse comes to worse if they have no reason to belive you are causing trouble then a wraning and being escorted home is the worse i i think you will see, the town has a problem.

Originally Posted by Damien

Also if we were discussing a ban on 20-30 year olds (who also commit many, many anti-social crimes) or a blanket ban on any other age group or race then their would be outrage. It is only because people are used to treating this age group as lesser people that they think this is acceptible.

Remember this people will eventually be your doctors, and carers.

i have aproblem with 24 hour drinking laws but thats for another threead.

Originally Posted by kronas

i do agree in some cases it is about lack of facilitys, but its mostly a smokescreen for the real underlying cause of bad behaviour.

Bad behaviour is not a cause, it is a symptom of any number of deeper, more complex problems. Many of them do not involve a lack of facilitys, they are results of a bad upbringing or other emotinal problem.

But sometimes bad behavior can rise from simply having little else to do. Taking away places for youths to go and then complaining when they roam the streets and start drinking is hyprocritical.

Most of these people live in the poorer areas of town, go to the worst schools and receive little help. The country is failing this people and should be helping them (which willl help combat the problem) instead of locking them in their houses and keeping them away from their friends (which will screw them up even more by the way!!)

if you have a genuine reason to be out there i expect commons ens eto prevail, if worse comes to worse if they have no reason to belive you are causing trouble then a wraning and being escorted home is the worse i i think you will see, the town has a problem.

I need a reason for me and my mates to go out now? The war finished a while ago you know.

THis is sounding very much like 1984 and is a horrific breach of freedom and human rights and at a time when people of this very forum are up in arms about ID cards (which will actually not stop you from doing anything) i am surprised to see that this, an actual obvious limit of freedom, is not minded as much. Are you less concerned about freedom when it doesn't apply to you?

I understand that this people do limit other peoples right to walk the streets as people are scared of them but this is no excuse for this extreame measure.

[nffc]

IMO Damien is spot on here. Nothing to add to it.

Why tar ALL kids with the same brush, not all kids are thugs and they don't appreciate that.

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Damien

Bad behaviour is not a cause, it is a symptom of any number of deeper, more complex problems. Many of them do not involve a lack of facilitys, they are results of a bad upbringing or other emotinal problem.

im glad you brought upbringing up because i think that plays a part in the childs overall tenure to do things that are 'hositle' to the enviroment.

you dont see me holidng a gun in the street do you ?

thats because i know guns are wrong and violence does not solve anything, it leads to more distress.

how do i know this ? from my upbringing and seeing what devistation guns can cause, as there is a gun problem in area sof this country.

Originally Posted by Damien

But sometimes bad behavior can rise from simply having little else to do. Taking away places for youths to go and then complaining when they roam the streets and start drinking is hyprocritical.

im sorry but its a smokescreen just to persue acts of violence, im bored 99% of the time and i do NOT go out and smash things up, cause bodily harm. trash everything out there, be a nusicence, be a trouble maker with the local community.

Originally Posted by Damien

Most of these people live in the poorer areas of town, go to the worst schools and receive little help. The country is failing this people and should be helping them (which willl help combat the problem) instead of locking them in their houses and keeping them away from their friends (which will screw them up even more by the way!!)

keeping them at home is the safest you can make it, i have seen local facilitys be vandalised by youths or not 'taken care of' in an appropriate manner.

if they want to contact their freinds, internet, telephones, mobiles, are available. if they live close to each other one of them can make a trek along to the others house, single file if there are multiple people.

then they can trash thier own homes.

the age groups mentioned should be schooled, homework to do on top of that and to fit a social life, perfectly plausable.

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Damien

i am surprised to see that this, an actual obvious limit of freedom, is not minded as much. Are you less concerned about freedom when it doesn't apply to you?

no, i have seen examples of this happening with other areas in previous years, however i can see it from the kids point of you, teeside has a problem and its up to the kids in the town to clean their act up, sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind and the way the police have handled for one area of the country is fine by me.

Originally Posted by Damien

I understand that this people do limit other peoples right to walk the streets as people are scared of them but this is no excuse for this extreame measure.

extreme ? its not that extreme, i dont think the police will be arresting everyone with more than one person with them willy nilly are they ?

Originally Posted by kronas

im sorry but its a smokescreen just to persue acts of violence, im bored 99% of the time and i do NOT go out and smash things up, cause bodily harm. trash everything out there, be a nusicence, be a trouble maker with the local community.

I am also sorry but you are wrong. People are not born with a will to create evil. People become violent because of a large number of factors which we will not go into here. But we need to address these problems and to do this kids need a place they can go. To have fun and keep them of the streets and also to talk if they have problems.

Originally Posted by kronas

keeping them at home is the safest you can make it, i have seen local facilitys be vandalised by youths or not 'taken care of' in an appropriate manner.

A large number of this cases are usally down to personal issues at home. Bad parenting, violent households and so on. This curfew is keeping this people at home, away from friends. This is only going to make the problem worse

if they want to contact their freinds, internet, telephones, mobiles, are available. if they live close to each other one of them can make a trek along to the others house, single file if there are multiple people.

What a world we live in eh? Kronas, I am sure that the youths will be delighted that the powers that be have allowed them to go out and exercise their freedom, if they meet the requirements. Walk in single file, No more than 2 people, you need a good reason.

You say that it is needed. That has always been the excuse to limit personal freedom from id cards and guantanamo bay to black civil right and slaverly.

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. "
--William Pitt

Surely this is much more of a insult to what the world fought for 60 years ago then the other recent events?

Originally Posted by Damien

That refers to kids not knowing what they do, I agree they know what they are doing. I am saying they are doing that because they cannot access find any other form of entertainment because youth centers, sports factilitys and other such places are being closed down.

And i can make the arguement that kids have nothing to do until you provide evidance otherwise

we were talking about this, at work, recently.

like Kronas said, no-one is saying that all groups of kids are bad, but these dispersal orders allow the Police to act, if it is felt any particular group is causing a nuisance.

As for 'nothing to do' - hmm, I'm going to do the 'when I were a lad' routine, now, but I was certainly expected to be in by 9pm when aged '10 to 16' - unfortunately way back then, I didn't have a playstation, or a computer, or a tv & video in my bedroom. We didn't have a phone in the house, let alone a mobile each, to make a phone call you went down the road, put your money in and pressed button B ....

ok - that's laying it on a bit thick, but you get my drift

- I take your point about sports facilities etc, also they can be expensive to use, even when they are provided.

However I don't think the problem is boredom, I think the problem is that young people are, not only, being exposed to pressures they aren't experienced enough to cope with, but also, that those same pressures are seen as cool - e.g 'sex & drugs & rock & roll'.

- there is nothing new there, of course, but, in my opinion, the significant change has been that the concept of people as young as 10 years old being out late at night has become 'normal' - so they are being exposed to those pressures at a much earlier age, than I was.

One suggestion - set a time at which the immunity from disclosing the names of 'minors' involved in public order offences was removed. If you are nicked after 9 pm, you are named, for example.

ASBO'S all ready have the same type of limits only they only apply to people who are likely to commit this type of problem. That is enough. It is a shame we have to do that but it becomes a lot worse if you extend it to people who's only crime is being the 'wrong' age

[Stu038]

At the risk of sounding an old git, "When I were lad and all that stuff".
EDIT Beaten to it by Homealone
There used to be a dozen or so of us hang around all from a council estate all the families on incomes that these days would be classed as below the poverty line, disadvantaged etc all the nice polite ways of saying that we had sweet FA. We had no "facilities" available to us other than the street corners we used to hang around on, but we never used to intimidate folks, if someone was walking along the path we would get out of the way for them.

A lot of excuses are sprouted about no facilities, poor parenting, abused kids etc. complete rubbish, its about attitude. A great majority of the kids around here these days have a bad attitude, they think that everything should be handed to them on a plate and when they don't get it they lash out.
Some one I know has got three lads aged 15, 16, and 17 the oldest and the youngest are lovely kids the middle one is a right thug, Why? he's not from some inner city sink estate, if it was dodgy parenting why is it just him?

IMHO its the crowd of other kids he hangs around with the ones that egg him on to steal from the local Tescos, the same ones that join him in harassing old ladies. They do it to make themselves feel important but most of all they do it because they know they can get away with it.

The plans being discussed here or bringing back floggings might not be the best way to deal with the problem but if either were brought in around my way they'd get the support of most of my neighbours. People are sick and tired of gangs of youths running around spraying graffiti smashing up cars, intimidating folks and everything else they get upto because they're bored.

Originally Posted by Stu038

At the risk of sounding an old git, "When I were lad and all that stuff".
EDIT Beaten to it by Homealone
There used to be a dozen or so of us hang around all from a council estate all the families on incomes that these days would be classed as below the poverty line, disadvantaged etc all the nice polite ways of saying that we had sweet FA. We had no "facilities" available to us other than the street corners we used to hang around on, but we never used to intimidate folks, if someone was walking along the path we would get out of the way for them.

A lot of excuses are sprouted about no facilities, poor parenting, abused kids etc. complete rubbish, its about attitude. A great majority of the kids around here these days have a bad attitude, they think that everything should be handed to them on a plate and when they don't get it they lash out.
Some one I know has got three lads aged 15, 16, and 17 the oldest and the youngest are lovely kids the middle one is a right thug, Why? he's not from some inner city sink estate, if it was dodgy parenting why is it just him?

IMHO its the crowd of other kids he hangs around with the ones that egg him on to steal from the local Tescos, the same ones that join him in harassing old ladies. They do it to make themselves feel important but most of all they do it because they know they can get away with it.

The plans being discussed here or bringing back floggings might not be the best way to deal with the problem but if either were brought in around my way they'd get the support of most of my neighbours. People are sick and tired of gangs of youths running around spraying graffiti smashing up cars, intimidating folks and everything else they get upto because they're bored.

lol - being 'bored' is not an excuse

being addicted to anything is not an excuse