*ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.

[DVS]

I love the figures you keep quoting Ignition, after all:-

79.48% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Logic is a systematic method for getting the wrong conclusion with confidence.
Statistics is a systematic method for getting the wrong conclusion with 95% confidence.



I asked a statistician for her phone number... and she gave me an estimate.

Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.

Three percent exceeds 2 percent by 50 percent, not by 1 percent.

[Ignition]

The unfortunate part in this case DVS is that they are true, based on easily measurable and quantifiable things reported reliably by electronic means.

Sign an NDA and I'll show you some stats on ntl subscribers proving out what I say about the UK industry as a whole.

[Chrysalis]

pipex own nildram but they still operate as different isp's, pipx offer unmetered bandwidth wannadoo doesnt.

I am into IT as you said but I am not wrong about the newbie argument, most people I speak to havent got a clue that ntl even have a cap and they certianly wouldnt know what I was on about if I said what would you do if you had a 5 gig cap. There are also other things such as people downloading at work because their work has a nice connection and then not downloading at home, but not everyone is lucky enough to be in that position. I would like someone to show me a website that needs a 3mbit connection and is quite slow on a 750kbit connection. Prove me wrong please.

Originally Posted by DVS

I love the figures you keep quoting Ignition, after all:-

79.48% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Logic is a systematic method for getting the wrong conclusion with confidence.
Statistics is a systematic method for getting the wrong conclusion with 95% confidence.



I asked a statistician for her phone number... and she gave me an estimate.

Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.

Three percent exceeds 2 percent by 50 percent, not by 1 percent.

not to disagree, but 'statistics' is an ambiguous term - on one hand describing the result of analysis of real data, on the other, a technique for predicting probabilities, based on sampled data.

- which category the stats quoted by Ignition fall in to I leave to your own conclusion....

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

I am into IT as you said but I am not wrong about the newbie argument, most people I speak to havent got a clue that ntl even have a cap and they certianly wouldnt know what I was on about if I said what would you do if you had a 5 gig cap. There are also other things such as people downloading at work because their work has a nice connection and then not downloading at home, but not everyone is lucky enough to be in that position. I would like someone to show me a website that needs a 3mbit connection and is quite slow on a 750kbit connection. Prove me wrong please.

Most people that you speak to would make up a very (repeated many times) small percentage of NTLs customer base.

Most NTL customers don't know there is a cap because they have never been informed of one by the company.

Most NTL customers have never visited this or similar sites so will not know of the discussions about caps.

Lack of knowledge about the existance of caps on NTL does not make a customer a newbie.

There are many websites that contain links which if the user clicks on every one will take substantially more time on a 750k connection than on a 3 Mb connection. When a person visits a website they do tend to click on the links within it. I visit a website every now and then which is basically nothing but a list of links to very large PDF files and you can certainly see the difference that hish speed connections make.

[th'engineer]

Originally Posted by Bill C

So when you moving

Bill just reiterating my view from the original cap have not changed my view thats one consistancy .



What happens Bill if NTL lose customers through introducing a cap.

[DieDieMyDarling]

Originally Posted by ianathuth

There are many websites that contain links which if the user clicks on every one will take substantially more time on a 750k connection than on a 3 Mb connection. When a person visits a website they do tend to click on the links within it. I visit a website every now and then which is basically nothing but a list of links to very large PDF files and you can certainly see the difference that hish speed connections make.

And those 'very large' PDF files are going to eat into your cap. So, either you use your new 3mb connection to view normal websites, get email, etc, and don't notice much difference in speed, OR you use the speed for bigger files, notice the difference, but use up your cap much faster.

The thing i'm most looking forward to, is finding out if newsgroups, email, and outages improve any after the caps, i personally don't think they will, as ntl are still made up of the blind leading the blind, and mis-management is mis-management, however low you make the caps.

[jtwn]

Yeah, its just like you could clock up 40gbs worth of pdfs a month

[Hans Gruber]

Unless he has a stall down the market selling dodgy books :p

[DieDieMyDarling]

Originally Posted by Hans Gruber

Unless he has a stall down the market selling dodgy books :p

If you think of 'large' PDF's as 50mb or there abouts, then it would only take 20 to make up 1gb. I used to download the tutorial ones, for Macromedia Flash, Photoshop, etc. They're all quite big files, some reaching over 150mb. And that's nothing compared to some of the tutorials for the likes of 3D rendering, including video's, they can be over 1GB (2 cd's worth).

[gimpymoo]

Is metered broadband really the way forward? And are telcos only implementing it to save their own bacon with the implementation of newer apps such as VOIP and VOD over IP which would take money AWAY from their own services. If in say a years time when VOIP is established, if I decide to use NTL's service, im sure they will waive the bandwith charge (seeing as im paying for the call anyway), although if I was to use Skype, im sure they would not be as generous.

My concerns is will the above technologies be able to take off if we are asked to pay once for the bandwith and then PAY again for the service? Kind of defeats the object of the exercise.

Were basically going back to the dial up culture where you will logon to get your emails, browse for a few minutes then log off under the fair of a huge internet bill.

Will I pay my bills online if im having to pay extra when it can be done at my bank for free... will I shop online when I can "browse" the shops in town for free considering all the sites which load oodles of multimedia content.. do I want to pay for that?

I just feel that PAYG broadband is a bad move and appears to be a step backwards considering the advances being made in IP technology and feel as though the only people who are going to benefit is the Telcos.

Do you think BT are going to let some company offer an un-metered service on their lines when they only offer a metered service which costs more?

[ian@huth]

Ten years is a very long time in internet terms. Technology and software will alter the speeds at which broadband operates and the levels at which services are capped, if indeed they are capped. In my eyes, capping is not being done to increase ISPs revenue but to ensure that the majority of customers get a reasonable internet experience. I don't think that there is anything to worry about for the vast majority of users and they will be able to continue doing their internet shopping, banking, etc as they do now.

I tried earlier today to get some interest in this topic but have had no takers so far. http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...ad.php?t=22421

[Hans Gruber]

Originally Posted by gimpymoo

And are telcos only implementing it to save their own bacon with the implementation of newer apps such as VOIP and VOD over IP which would take money AWAY from their own services. If in say a years time when VOIP is established, if I decide to use NTL's service, im sure they will waive the bandwith charge (seeing as im paying for the call anyway), although if I was to use Skype, im sure they would not be as generous.

To me that's the reason they are introducing caps. If they cap the service before these services take off NTL can charge what they like once they start running their own services. People will be none the wiser that these kind of services previously existed freely and will just assume they'd have to pay NTL to use them.

We're coming to a point where the internet is being governed by the ISPs profits. It is in no way of any benefit for the customer.

What I don't get it why people, who claim to go nowhere near the limit, are so pro-cap. Surely it won't affect them one way or the other? Overloaded areas will still be overloaded, and other areas will still have plenty of bandwidth to go round. If you live in a bad area now, just wait till people are downloading at 3mbit.

Originally Posted by ianathuth

There are many websites that contain links which if the user clicks on every one will take substantially more time on a 750k connection than on a 3 Mb connection. When a person visits a website they do tend to click on the links within it. I visit a website every now and then which is basically nothing but a list of links to very large PDF files and you can certainly see the difference that hish speed connections make.

Doesn't your own argument defeat that? Surely the "average" user, whoever that is, isn't going to be downloading many large PDF files. No, NTL are doing this is they can put a big number on their adverts and claim to be faster/cheaper than everyone else.

That's generally fine for the "standard" 2Mb package, but the point is that there isn't going to be a package for high bandwidth users. The 3Mb is still capped. I can't imagine why anyone would ever want to order it, since the difference it would make to anyone who stays within the cap limit will be nill.

The problem for NTL is that something like this is enough to push people away, since BT and Sky offer better stuff anyway. I think it will scare a lot of people off too, since they will know that if they get ADSL they can switch provider fairly easily if their ISP suddenly becomes rubbish.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by mojo

Doesn't your own argument defeat that? Surely the "average" user, whoever that is, isn't going to be downloading many large PDF files. No, NTL are doing this is they can put a big number on their adverts and claim to be faster/cheaper than everyone else.

That's generally fine for the "standard" 2Mb package, but the point is that there isn't going to be a package for high bandwidth users. The 3Mb is still capped. I can't imagine why anyone would ever want to order it, since the difference it would make to anyone who stays within the cap limit will be nill.

The problem for NTL is that something like this is enough to push people away, since BT and Sky offer better stuff anyway. I think it will scare a lot of people off too, since they will know that if they get ADSL they can switch provider fairly easily if their ISP suddenly becomes rubbish.

Why wouldn't the average user do just that?

Any user, no matter how experienced or how little they use the internet can go to a site that may have been thrown up by a Google search, find the content interesting and download all the PDFs on the site. A new user may be browsing the net for the first time and come across a site containing thumbnails of pictures and decide to download the very large BMPs from there. Inexperience doesn't mean that you just browse sites with little content on them.