*ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.

[Hans Gruber]

So the only reason people will exceed the cap limit now is down to immaturtiy? Come on ianathuth, please don't go down that route.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by Hans Gruber

So the only reason people will exceed the cap limit now is down to immaturtiy? Come on ianathuth, please don't go down that route.

Did I say that? No.

What I did infer was that there were a lot of users downloading anything and everything they could and would never listen to most of the mp3s they downloaded, never watch many of the videos that they downloaded and never play many of the games and game demos that they downloaded.

Think about it logically. If someone is downloading 24/7, when do they get the chance to listen, watch or play what they have downloaded? What do they do with all that material? How do they store it all?

[Hans Gruber]

Originally Posted by ianathuth

Did I say that? No.

What I did infer was that there were a lot of users downloading anything and everything they could and would never listen to most of the mp3s they downloaded, never watch many of the videos that they downloaded and never play many of the games and game demos that they downloaded.

Think about it logically. If someone is downloading 24/7, when do they get the chance to listen, watch or play what they have downloaded? What do they do with all that material? How do they store it all?

Surely that is their business? People can do what they like with their time and money, it's really not for you to tell them what they should and shouldn't do. You need to understand not everyone is you.

And yes, you did say that. What has maturity got to do with what equiptment people use for their own personal entertainment?

[Chrysalis]

I dont download 24/7 but I am not comfortable with a 40 gig limit, I am sure there is many others like me.

Be assured many will leave ntl because of this even if they are light users as the cap will simply scare them off they wont want to go back to the days where they have to worry about their usage.

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by ianathuth

Did I say that? No.

What I did infer was that there were a lot of users downloading anything and everything they could and would never listen to most of the mp3s they downloaded, never watch many of the videos that they downloaded and never play many of the games and game demos that they downloaded.

Think about it logically. If someone is downloading 24/7, when do they get the chance to listen, watch or play what they have downloaded? What do they do with all that material? How do they store it all?

Right shall I buy a dvd player and use my 14" tv with mono sound to watch dvd's instead of my pc which has 17" monitor and 4 speakers with subwoofer?

Why? Don't you have a DVD drive on your PC?

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Right shall I buy a dvd player and use my 14" tv with mono sound to watch dvd's instead of my pc which has 17" monitor and 4 speakers with subwoofer?

I would rather watch my DVDs on my 32" widescreen with home theatre system and still have my PC available to do other things whilst I am watching it.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Be assured many will leave ntl because of this even if they are light users as the cap will simply scare them off they wont want to go back to the days where they have to worry about their usage.

I doubt that very much. There are millions of people paying too much for their gas, electricity, telephone calls, credit cards, mortgage, etc (the list goes on and on) because they can't be bothered to change even though they know they should.

[quadplay]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Be assured many will leave ntl because of this even if they are light users as the cap will simply scare them off they wont want to go back to the days where they have to worry about their usage.

No, some will leave. The vast majority (through inertia or choice), will stay unless they find that they are regularly exceeding the cap - in which case, they can either change tier, or they might find a more specialist ISP would be a better choice for them. Most won't worry until they are informed by ntl that they should worry. I'm sure you'll find that the majority of customers are not yet aware of the forthcoming speed upgrades, and the downstream bandwidth cap that appears to be impending.

Remember, this forum, and others like it, are in no way representative of the Internet community these days. This forum, for example, currently has 6,380 members (which includes a number of members who do not use ntl's broadband service) - ntl has over 1.2 million broadband customers. The people who congregate here and discuss such matters are more likely to be heavier users, and that skews the discussion somewhat.

[Chrysalis]

Well even if say %3 leave, %3 of 1million is a fair sized number, 30000 people leaving is many in my view.

Anyway, my next point in this discussion. After reading the responses of those who agree with the cap, I seem to be getting this message.

NTL seem content in having high customer turnover they don't mind if people leave as long as the people signing up is more then the people leaving so they continue growth of their userbase. This approach is fine in a way I guess as it does give them growth but its an expensive approach also as there is engineer costs in installlations and admin costs in account closures/setups also the cost of providing the install free adds to this. I am bringing this up because I am trying to work out why NTL are not making a profit without the capping/proxies/admin fees/top tier price hike etc. That is why I questioned NTL not bringing back the install fee's. NTL just seem to be throwing money away be it bad management decisions and the people who pay the price are us. It was also brought up that the contention is at ubr level and so the contention can come easier, this is a good point but dont telewest have the potential same problem? If not why is this, do they have different ubr's? or do they have more of them?

On the subject of profit I think the only people who will know if NTL are making an actual profit and how much (in the broadband sector only) are shareholders and high level management so the people posting on these forums are you one of the 2? I am aware NTL probably tell their staff we need X amount to make a profit but companies usually have a target profit level and if they are below it they make the staff believe they are not hitting profit at all and something nasty will happen if they dont reach it, its a way to motivate the staff to work harder. This I have experienced many times.

[quadplay]

I don't think 30,000 people will leave the service as a direct result of this. We might be talking in the low thousands, but I doubt it.

The amount of profit or loss ntl makes is published in their quarterly and annual reports - which are available as PDF files on their website - so it's easy to find out. These reports also include a breakdown of how many subscribers take TV, telephone, dial-up or broadband services.

I think the real danger for NTL here is that they will become the next AOL.

AOL marketed themselves as good for newbies, with easy set-up, friendly software, parental controls etc. Also, AOL was everywhere, CDs in every shop and on every magazine, even on the default Windows desktop. At first, a lot of people signed up and loved it, but after a while those people started to get a bit more savvy and wanting to break away from the enforced AOL browser etc. Their techie friends didn't think much of AOL either, and never recommended it. So, they moved to a different provider.

AOL tried to counter, with less lock-in etc. NTL is in danger is going the same way. NTL is the default choice for anyone who already had NTL TV and phone packages. However, more and more people are getting into downloading media, be is via the Apple movie trailers site, Bittorrent, web radio etc. The BBCs new P2P app for distributing TV shows free of charge is likely to be massive in the comming year too. When people realise they can't use all this stuff on NTL, and their friends tell them how much better unlimited ADSL is, they will switch. Not only will they ditch their cable modem, but also their cable TV and phone. NTL won't just loose £25 a month, more like £55/month for someone with digital telly.

Even AOL are now doing unlimited (no cap) broadband, and BT/Sky would just love your business. There is even Freeview on the TV front. Keep in mind that NTL is already falling behind with both the TV (Sky has more channels available, better (working) interactive, HDTV in 2006) and phone (caller ID doesn't seem to be available in ex-C&W areas like mine). Don't think that ADSL ISPs won't match the speed/price of NTL either.

Personally, I like NTL as a provider, but if the cap is enforced I'd be forced to move. I know at least three people who I wouldn't consider particularly tech savvy who moved to NTL cable internet when they saw how much better is was than ADSL, but I have no doubt they would move back again. As the credit card companies offering 0% on balance transfers have found, people are getting more canny and will move when they have to.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by jimbo

I don't think 30,000 people will leave the service as a direct result of this. We might be talking in the low thousands, but I doubt it.

The amount of profit or loss ntl makes is published in their quarterly and annual reports - which are available as PDF files on their website - so it's easy to find out. These reports also include a breakdown of how many subscribers take TV, telephone, dial-up or broadband services.

Actually, I would have though 30000 out of 1 million would be lower than the normal quarterly turnover of customers..

[Chrysalis]

People will move, some out of morality of simply not wanting a cap no matter how much they use and other's who's usage doesnt fit with what ntl offer. Doesnt the report published by ntl show total profit not profit for the broadband sector only? if it does sorry I am wrong there.

Mojo you make a good point ntl seem to marketing themselves for the newbie type user, broadband medic and low usage accounts.

I forgot to say this in my last post as well, isp's such as nildram and pipex are not niche isp's they provide EVERYTHING that BT and wannadoo provide but they also provide more, the only reason why they dont have the same customer base is because of brand name and advertising. How many nildram TV ads do you see? none. What the customer don't know about they wont order. AOL is the only isp with no cap that advertises on tv. Simple fact is large isp's take advantage of this and exploit customer's they know most people are not aware of whats on offer out there and only provide the minimal needed.

[Ignition]

I forgot to say this in my last post as well, isp's such as nildram and pipex are not niche isp's they provide EVERYTHING that BT and wannadoo provide but they also provide more

Pipex and Nildram are the same company dude. Pipex don't provide any more than Wanadoo last I checked, dynamic IP, webspace, news server, email and that's about it. No doubt Wanadoo have various 'newbie' services that appeal more to the less experienced user. There are also various content services that BT / Wanadoo / Tiscali provide rather than leaving it all up to users and Bittorrent.

Actually I'm fairly insulted at your describing the mass market as being 'newbie' users. Why not go with Andrews and Arnold or another 'leet' ISP if ntl are too 'newbie' for you? What exactly do you do for a living, you're an IT guru presumably as you're quite happy to talk down to and describe as ignorant people who just want a cheap but quick internet connection with support there when they need it.

Sadly ntl will still be in business and will probably get a nice large net influx of customers as a result of these new packages. If I were you I'd get over it and find yourself an ISP leet enough to provide you services. Once again you provide nothing to back up your claims and insult the average user of high speed internet, that 95% who just want it to work rapidly when they want to browse, email, chat and download the odd file.

[ian@huth]

Not all customers who are on the lower tiers and have usage patterns that are well within the caps are newbies. A lot of them have a life outside of the internet but use it now and then.

I would suspect that many of the higher usage customers are newbies who have got a new toy and think it is their duty to download everything possible. Many of this type eventually wake up to the fact that they never use most of what they download.