*ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.

[Alastair]

hi everybody



I'm currently thinking of getting ntl broadband because the ISP i'm with now says that i cant get a 1mb account (something to do with the local BT exchange ). Anyways back to ntl, i've heard the cap limit is 1GB a day for the 750 account, i know downloading affects the limit (duh), but does uploading data affect this cap limitation? anyone care to shed some light on this

[Derek]

Uploading doesn't affect it and there is (currently) no hard cap. The only time you would be contacted is if you constantly go well over the limit.

[Alastair]

Thanks for the quick reply this clears things up a bit, btw whats a hard cap?

[Tricky]

Originally Posted by dezzo

Uploading doesn't affect it and there is (currently) no hard cap. The only time you would be contacted is if you constantly go well over the limit.

AFAIK you have 1gb traffic per day - therefore upload and downloads are all in? I've been told that NTL have a top 200 list of people they contact/monitor each month

[Tricky]

Originally Posted by Alastair

Thanks for the quick reply this clears things up a bit, btw whats a hard cap?

A hard cap would stop you transferring anything else on the network

BTW - Welcome to the site...

[Alastair]

Okay so let me get this straight, you means as in transfer files they didnt want you to like P2P programs?

[quadplay]

The guideline affects all downstream traffic - be it normal web browsing, program downloads, or P2P downloads. It does not currently include upstream traffic. The following is from the Acceptable Use Policy, available at http://www.home.ntl.com/page/userpolicy, which says that nobody may use the service in excess of the "Normal use" limit:

"Normal use" of the service is defined as up to 1 gigabyte downstream of data transfer daily (which equates to approximately 200 music tracks, 650 short videos, 10,000 pictures or around 100 large software programmes downloaded per day).

This is, though, a guideline only. A "hard cap", on the other hand, would mean that once you reached your limit (1GB/day, 30GB/month, or whatever), your access would be cut off, or you would be charged more. There is no such "hard cap" currently in effect on any ntl residential services.

[Matth]

At the moment, the 1Gb/day is a guideline - break it 3 times in a fortnight and they MAY be having words, but it seems unlikely unless you are putting an unacceptable strain on the network - that is what people usually mean by the "soft cap".

The NEW tariffs for 2005 - 1, 2 and 3 Megabit, come with 5Gb, 30 Gb and 40Gb monthly caps, and tighter enforcement ("hard cap") is expected - though what form it's likely to take is not yet known.

What was the "lite" tier at 300k, moves to 1Mbit, and since that is a throughput that cost £34.99 not so long ago, at £17.99 it gets a 5Gb cap to make it a "lite" service.

Anyway, uploads, they don't like, there is much less upload capacity than download, and from past reports, uploading more than 300Mb/day is considered unreasonable.

The current services are also 300k down / 64k up (128 up on STB)
750 down / 128 up
1.5Mbit down / 256k up

If you have 512k down/256k up ADSL on a no-cap provider at a decent price, then do not give NTL a second thought.

This is going to be a bit of a problem. P2P is really taking off, and has many legitimate uses that NTL is going to be hurting.

For example, next year the BBC will begin distributing programs via P2P. If you can only upload a fraction of what you download per day, due to capping, all NTL users will be forced to leech. Ditto with BitTorrent.

The whole point of broadband is not just to make web pages load faster - it's about media. Video and audio. Web TV and web radio. Now reasonable speeds are finally comming to the UK, and NTL are trying to retard it.

A friend of mine in Japan gets 100Mbit fiber to her flat for £23/month, uncapped. Of course, it doesn't operate that fast but she thinks it's quicker than Yahoo's 50Mbit ADSL. Thanks for holding the UK back, NTL.

[rikesh]

if ntl are going to do this, i guarantee they will leave a very important feature out. usage tracking. if u cant see how much bandwidth youve already used in the month, how r u going to know how much to dload? if someone could see that they only have, say, 50mb left to use in 10 days, then they would dload less pics, videos etc and keep it basic, so they can still send email on the last day of the month!

just something to keep in mind, ntl ppl...

[Neil]

Oh good, another cap thread.......

[Tristan]

Originally Posted by mojo

This is going to be a bit of a problem. P2P is really taking off, and has many legitimate uses that NTL is going to be hurting.

For example, next year the BBC will begin distributing programs via P2P. If you can only upload a fraction of what you download per day, due to capping, all NTL users will be forced to leech. Ditto with BitTorrent.

The whole point of broadband is not just to make web pages load faster - it's about media. Video and audio. Web TV and web radio. Now reasonable speeds are finally comming to the UK, and NTL are trying to retard it.

A friend of mine in Japan gets 100Mbit fiber to her flat for £23/month, uncapped. Of course, it doesn't operate that fast but she thinks it's quicker than Yahoo's 50Mbit ADSL. Thanks for holding the UK back, NTL.

[rant]

mojo, have you ever considered thinking before posting? Maybe combined with a bit of reading around the subject?

For example, where on earth are NTL supposed to get the money to dig up roads in every major town in Britain to replace the coax cable with fibre? Hell, doing it the first time almost bankrupted them?

Likewise, there's not a lot they can do about the internation cable modem protocol, DOCSIS. The version currently used, (Euro)DOCSIS 1.1, is designed to be very very assymetric. That's why cable connections are very assymmetric. This isn't NTL's fault, it's the people who designed the protocol in the first place. There is an upgraded version, DOCSIS 2.0, with much better upstream capabilities, but the server equipment isn't readily available for it yet. But guess what: the modems NTL are giving out now can be flashed to DOCSIS 2.0 when the time comes.

(By the way, if we're going for useless examples, I have several friends living in UK who can plug their home computers straight into a 100Mbps internet connection -- and pay less than £100 a year for the privalege. Also, I notice you don't mention the many cable ISPs in the states where configurations like 8 meg down/128k up are not uncommon -- for exactly the same reasons as above.)

So you tell me, now that I've saved you the trouble of actually going out and learning for yourself: given the limits of the technology available to them at the present time, how should NTL proceed?

[/rant]

Originally Posted by Neil

Oh good, another cap thread.......

Neil

Send up the flags

I agree with you

Originally Posted by mojo

Thanks for holding the UK back, NTL.

What planet are you on.

Are you saying that NTL are holding back the UK on there own. I think you should wake up and smell the coffee.

NTL are not the only ISP that are about to introduce caps. And they will not be the first to have metered broadband.

Is it Cable or Adsl that has increased speed this year and will be doing it again next year

If you are going to brand a company at least do it with a bit of knowledge first.

[Ignition]

Originally Posted by Tristan

[rant]

mojo, have you ever considered thinking before posting? Maybe combined with a bit of reading around the subject?

Likewise, there's not a lot they can do about the internation cable modem protocol, DOCSIS. The version currently used, (Euro)DOCSIS 1.1, is designed to be very very assymetric. That's why cable connections are very assymmetric. This isn't NTL's fault, it's the people who designed the protocol in the first place. There is an upgraded version, DOCSIS 2.0, with much better upstream capabilities, but the server equipment isn't readily available for it yet. But guess what: the modems NTL are giving out now can be flashed to DOCSIS 2.0 when the time comes.

Really? 1 x 64QAM DOCSIS downstream, data bearing capacity just below 27Mbps and 6 3.2MHz QPSK upstreams, data bearing capacity 6 x 4Mbps. Not massively asymettrical main issue there is usage patterns.

If cable network were good enough the downstream capacity could be increased over 33% and the upstream capacity 100%.

DOCSIS 2 compatible equipment is readily available from a number of vendors at this time.

Also, I notice you don't mention the many cable ISPs in the states where configurations like 8 meg down/128k up are not uncommon -- for exactly the same reasons as above.)
[/rant]

Who are these mythical ISPs? The best ISP for download I can see is Optimum Online whose upload is a mere 1Mbit to a 10Mbit download. Other North American examples are Cogeco with their DOCSIS 1.1 based 10Mbit/1Mbit premium package and 5.5Mbit/640kbit STANDARD package, Rogers and Shaw (using the mythical DOCSIS 2) also nowhere near as asymettrical as UK cable offering nearly 1Mbit uploads on 5Mbit services, Accessonline offer 9Mbit/1Mbit, etc, etc. Some US ISPs that are similar are Comcast who used to offer 3Mbit down 256k up but have uplifted to 3Mbit/384kbit, Roadrunner's 3Mbit/384kbit and 6Mbit/512kbit are in the ballpark as well.

Struggling to find that 8Mbit/128k up which is 'not uncommon' though sir.

As far as what ntl can do, well more proactive rather than reactive action would be nice, pushing the envelope would be great rather than sitting back and counting the pennies, however these things don't make money and regardless of the above ntl are there to make money and don't have quite the same attitude as Telewest towards innovation. I hope that the two of them benefit from each other when they merge and the combine company takes the leading edge - speed is the one thing that cable can make DSL bleed on.