Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jem

A ‘proportionate response’ actually can’t be defined, it’s more of a ‘what do most people think is acceptable’.

<SNIP>

In the days following the attack Israel had the sympathy of most of the World, but they have managed to burn that all away. To the point where now Israel is seen as the aggressor, in the wrong, needs to be stopped.....

How, just how have Israel managed to switch from being the victim to the aggressor. Is it Netanyahu’s desperation to avoid legal action for a while?

You make your point well. You haven't offered an idealistic, impossible "solution" which only those viewing from the outside could concoct (e.g. what Grim said).

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

So we can take it you feel nearly 60 Gazan's for 1 Israel is a proportionate response and that you value the lives of certain people so little compared to the Israelis.

That seems to be Seph's calculation.

So, if we assume that of the 2,055 people killed in Lebanon this year by Israel, 55 are terrorists and 2,000 are collateral damage, then a proportionate response by Lebanon would be to take out 60 x 2,000 = 120,000 people. But if it carries on like this, then everyone will be wiped out!

The reality is that we don't live in Old Testament times. It's not about revenging deaths, it's about ensuring Israel's future safety. This involves acting clever as Mossad has traditionally done and not acting like a bull in a china shop as Netanyahu favours.

One key factor in the equation is of course Iran. Helping facilitate the protestors in Iran through subtle means to bring about regime change would be hugely beneficial to reducing attacks on Israel. Another factor is the actions of the West Bank Israeli zealots who are being given free reign to violently take over Palestinian territory. Stopping this happening is a good start.

[Sephiroth]

So, what would be acceptable or proportionate?

[1andrew1]

Lurking behind all of this are Netanyahu's corruption hearings.

Netanyahu’s corruption trial hearings ‘cancelled’

The Times of Israel is reporting that three hearings in Binyamin Netanyahu’s corruption trial have been cancelled following a request from the Israeli prime minister’s legal team.

The hearings were scheduled to go ahead this week. They are the latest hearings to be cancelled in the long-running trial.

The Jerusalem District Court has asked for an update from Netanyahu’s lawyers regarding future possible hearings.

https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-tod...rump-93l533737

---------- Post added at 23:19 ---------- Previous post was at 23:18 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

So, what would be acceptable or proportionate?

I'm with Jem and Grim on this - find the perpetrators and bring them to justice. Act intelligently and understand that killing innocent citizens of other countries just acts as a recruiting sergeant for terrorists.

Elon’s taking it well…

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Elon’s taking it well…

I wonder if J D Vance might be free to pop over and endorse Trump's mate here?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

<SNIP>

I'm with Jem and Grim on this - find the perpetrators and bring them to justice. Act intelligently and understand that killing innocent citizens of other countries just acts as a recruiting sergeant for terrorists.

Ideally, yes. But how to do it? Impossible.

[Carth]

Difficult finding the right ones when most fit the same profile :~

Loose baggy clothing, wild eyes, long straggly hair, beard, kalashnikov

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Ideally, yes. But how to do it? Impossible.

Nothing's impossible given time and money.

No point in reacting with bombing instead just because it's easier - it doesn't resolve the situation and makes it worse in the longer term.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

it doesn't resolve the situation and makes it worse in the longer term.

It resolves his situation, keeping him in power.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Paul

It resolves his situation, keeping him in power.

Yes, that is very true.

[jem]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Yes, that is very true.

For now - next elections are in October.

Now let’s see Israel seem to have been completely sidelined by the US, they weren’t even invited to the ‘peace talks’ in Pakistan; the current Iranian regime still appears to be in power, there have been no uprising, if anything they seem even more militant. The campaign against Hezbollah in Lebanon will probably require a ground invasion, which historically has never worked out well for either side, and imagine that the US and Iran work out some kind of deal? Trump is desperate to get out of this mess with at least a claim of ‘victory’. The US will demand that Israel ceases all military operations as part of the deal, which they have no option but to agree or lose US support - the implication is that Israel is no longer in control of it’s own destiny, militarily. The Israeli electorate may take note of that.

Right now, it’s not looking too good for him......

[1andrew1]

Analysis: Israel-Lebanon talks a genuine achievement by Trump's team

There is a "rare buzz" in the US State Department in Washington ahead of talks between Israel and Lebanon, which are expected to get under way in a matter of minutes.

That's according to our US correspondent Mark Stone reports.

Israel's ambassador to the US, Yechiel Leiter, and his Lebanese counterpart, Nada Hamadeh Moawad, will hold discussions alongside US secretary of state Marco Rubio later (see 13:32 post).

"Today is a genuine achievement of the Trump administration," Stone said.

"It is a demonstration of the power of President Trump, because I think it's fair to say that Netanyahu would not have agreed to send his ambassador here to sit around a table with the Lebanese ambassador had Trump not told him to.

"So, in that sense, this is important."

While a major breakthrough is unlikely, it marks the beginning of talks that must be viewed as "hugely symbolic", Stone said.

https://news.sky.com/story/iran-war-...rvice-13509565

[Carth]

Maybe Netanyahu has sent his ambassador to tell Trumps ambassador what a complete dork Trump is . . and for him to stay off Twitter or 'X' or whatever other social media platforms where he acts like a 5 year old