Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Exactly this! Netanyahu has condemned more generations of innocent folk in Israel to terrorist attacks in order to keep himself out of jail.

---------- Post added at 11:45 ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 ----------


I would be interested in knowing Seph's sources for his claims.

There you have it: “Terrorist attacks”. The clue is in the word “terrorist”. The terrorists attack,Israel responds. What is a “proportional response” to a terrorist rocket that kills, say, three Israelis?

As to the notion that Lebanese people will hate Israel more because of the retaliation, they hated Israel before such incidents. Indeed, the Jews are seen across the Shia Muslim world as the devil to be exterminated. What is “proportional”? None of you Starmerites (for that is how you come across) can answer that. In the meantine, Shia terrorism continues.

Regarding the roasting of babies, there are many accounts from witnesses. There are a greater number of contra-accounts. Whatever Hamas did or didn’t do, they murdered, raped and kidnapped. What’s “proportional” in terms of a response? I regard Israel’s attack on the root, Iran, as entirely proportional to try to cut off the gorgon’s head.

On top of that, Netanyahu is a bad egg who nevertheless has a country to defend.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

There you have it: “Terrorist attacks”. The clue is in the word “terrorist”. The terrorists attack,Israel responds. What is a “proportional response” to a terrorist rocket that kills, say, three Israelis?

As to the notion that Lebanese people will hate Israel more because of the retaliation, they hated Israel before such incidents. Indeed, the Jews are seen across the Shia Muslim world as the devil to be exterminated. What is “proportional”? None of you Starmerites (for that is how you come across) can answer that. In the meantine, Shia terrorism continues.

Regarding the roasting of babies, there are many accounts from witnesses.

There are a greater number of contra-accounts. Whatever Hamas did or didn’t do, they murdered, raped and kidnapped. What’s “proportional” in terms of a response? I regard Israel’s attack on the root, Iran, as entirely proportional to try to cut off the gorgon’s head.

On top of that, Netanyahu is a bad egg who nevertheless has a country to defend.

That is not an accurate reflection of actuality - it was all based on one witness’s account, which could not be verified…

As posted previously

the claim originated from a volunteer who thought he saw that baby and relayed it to Beer inaccurately.

And further to that

https://www.sochfactcheck.com/media-...oven-by-hamas/

Soch Fact Check later reached out to Fake Reporter, inquiring whether they conducted any recent investigations on this matter. They guided us to a Haaretz article which, referencing the story about a baby in an oven, clarifies: “United Hatzalah President Eli Beer told of a baby that was placed in an oven and burned to death. Beer made the remarks at a donors conference in the United States. The British newspaper The Daily Mail changed it from “baby” to “babies.”

But this story also is not true. Ten-month-old Mila Cohen was murdered in the massacre, along with the baby still in the womb of her mother who died after her mother was shot on the way to hospital. The police have no evidence showing that other babies were killed. A source at United Hatzalah said a volunteer mistakenly interpreted a case at the Shura base and passed the inaccuracy on to Beer.”

[Sephiroth]

You're just focused on roasting babies. I went on to say:

Whatever Hamas did or didn’t do, they murdered, raped and kidnapped. What’s “proportional” in terms of a response? I regard Israel’s attack on the root, Iran, as entirely proportional to try to cut off the gorgon’s head.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You're just focused on roasting babies. I went on to say:

tbf, you started the focus on "roasting babies"…

For example, what would have been a "proportionate response" to Hamas roasting Israeli babies and murdering 1200 people?

And I pointed out that there couldn’t be a proportionate response to something that can’t be proven to have happened…

And if you’re changing the focus to the "murdering 1200 people" (which was evil and abhorrent), well, Israel showed they believed the "proportionate response" was killing 70,000+ Gazans…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgpd1x00exo

Israeli media cite official accepting Hamas figure of 70,000 war dead

Israeli media report that a senior security source has said the military accepts that more than 70,000 Palestinians have been killed during the war in Gaza.
Israel has previously cast doubt on figures from the Hamas-run health ministry.
But their figures have been deemed reliable by the UN and other human rights groups and widely cited by international media.

The war began after the Hamas-led attack on southern Israel on 7 October 2023, when about 1,200 other people were killed and 251 were taken hostage.

Israel responded by launching a military campaign in Gaza, during which more than 71,660 people have been killed, according to the Hamas-run health ministry.

It says at least 492 Palestinians have been killed since a ceasefire began on 10 October 2025. Four Israeli soldiers have also been killed.

Israel has always disputed the Hamas figures and said before last year's ceasefire it had killed 1,600 fighters since 7 October 2023 and another 22,000 combatants in the war.

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) previously said it believed two or three civilians had been killed for every dead militant.

Now a senior military source has indicated to Israeli journalists, including those from Haaretz and the Times of Israel, external, that the total number given by the Hamas health ministry is largely accurate, even though they have not been able to break down how many were combatants and how many died as a direct result of the fighting.

[Sephiroth]

It's clear from our exchanges, that I recognise the disputed account. I have moved on as follows:

Whatever Hamas did or didn’t do, they murdered, raped and kidnapped. What’s “proportional” in terms of a response? I regard Israel’s attack on the root, Iran, as entirely proportional to try to cut off the gorgon’s head

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

It's clear from our exchanges, that I recognise the disputed account. I have moved on as follows:

So we can take it you feel nearly 60 Gazan's for 1 Israel is a proportionate response and that you value the lives of certain people so little compared to the Israelis.

I think all live is precious and goes too quickly without some crazy (whatever side they are from) snuffing it out for some misguided belief.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

So we can take it you feel nearly 60 Gazan's for 1 Israel is a proportionate response and that you value the lives of certain people so little compared to the Israelis.

I think all live is precious and goes too quickly without some crazy (whatever side they are from) snuffing it out for some misguided belief.

This is what you lot do: Avoid answering the question of what would be a "proportionate response" to what Hamas did (and what Hezbollah are doing).

My difficulty with your question is nobody wants innocent civilians to die. But when something as horrible as what Hamas did happens, and when Hamas then hides in schools and hospitals, if Israel does nothing, it'll happen again and again. So you have target and fight the swine and the collateral damage becomes, regrettably, unavoidable.

So, what would be "proportionate response" to what Hamas did?

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

This is what you lot do: Avoid answering the question of what would be a "proportionate response" to what Hamas did (and what Hezbollah are doing).

My difficulty with your question is nobody wants innocent civilians to die. But when something as horrible as what Hamas did happens, and when Hamas then hides in schools and hospitals, if Israel does nothing, it'll happen again and again. So you have target and fight the swine and the collateral damage becomes, regrettably, unavoidable.

So, what would be "proportionate response" to what Hamas did?

So, unless someone can state what exactly a proportionate response is then Israel’s response is by default proportionate ? Is that what you’re saying ?

Israel is very well known in intelligence circles for its lack of care whilst striking targets. It’s forces quite simply do not care about collateral damage

And as per usual their victim mentality comes to the surface as soon as someone criticises them (Spain in this case) with cries of anti-semitism

Israel is becoming recognised (at an accelerated rate) by the international community as a pariah state, entirely deserved due its war mongering leader and its lunatic right wing coalition

"You're not blockading the Strait of Hormuz, I am!!!"





1968: We had to destroy the village in order to save it


2026: We had to blockade the Strait in order to open it up

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

So, unless someone can state what exactly a proportionate response is then Israel’s response is by default proportionate ? Is that what you’re saying ?

Israel is very well known in intelligence circles for its lack of care whilst striking targets. It’s forces quite simply do not care about collateral damage

And as per usual their victim mentality comes to the surface as soon as someone criticises them (Spain in this case) with cries of anti-semitism

Israel is becoming recognised (at an accelerated rate) by the international community as a pariah state, entirely deserved due its war mongering leader and its lunatic right wing coalition

You're doing it too. People like you are criticising Israel for not making a "proportionate response" to the Hamas & Hezbollah attacks. Yet they cannot/do not offer a suggestion as to what would be a "proportionate response" to attacker organisations dedicated to the obliteration of Israel.

If there hadn't been a "lunatic right-wing coalition" in Israel, what might a "proportionate respnse" been?

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You're doing it too. People like you are criticising Israel for not making a "proportionate response" to the Hamas & Hezbollah attacks. Yet they cannot/do not offer a suggestion as to what would be a "proportionate response" to attacker organisations dedicated to the obliteration of Israel.

If there hadn't been a "lunatic right-wing coalition" in Israel, what might a "proportionate respnse" been?

You’ve completely failed to answer my initial question. do that then let’s discuss

What I can tell you is a proportionate response doesn’t include the alleged torture of a 21 month old toddler via burning them with cigarettes

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You're doing it too.

Is everyone "out to get you" as well ?

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

This is what you lot do: Avoid answering the question of what would be a "proportionate response" to what Hamas did (and what Hezbollah are doing).

My difficulty with your question is nobody wants innocent civilians to die. But when something as horrible as what Hamas did happens, and when Hamas then hides in schools and hospitals, if Israel does nothing, it'll happen again and again. So you have target and fight the swine and the collateral damage becomes, regrettably, unavoidable.

So, what would be "proportionate response" to what Hamas did?

What would be a proportionate response would be tracking down the orchestrators and bring the to justice or if not possible then dispatch them in a measured way to minimise collateral damage. I'd be surprised if they didn't know where the people responsible were - after all it's the excuse they use time after time form destroying every building for 100's of metres in every direction.

Have they not realised all this carpet bombing does is make your enemy younger? How many children are now going to grow up full of hatred? Hatred not based on what they're told but based on what they've experienced. Look at Iran, they've managed to replace the old regime with a new younger version.

This will never end until one side decides to do things differently. Sticking my tongue in boiling water over and over expecting not to get burned is stupid, but both sides in the middle east seem happy to keep trying .

[jem]

A ‘proportionate response’ actually can’t be defined, it’s more of a ‘what do most people think is acceptable’.

For example, say that back in the 1970s the IRA detonate a bomb in London (which they did), killing, say 50 people. Would nuking Dublin be seen as ‘proportionate’? Obviously no, so we didn’t. What we would do was to slowly identify the individuals responsible and take direct action against them. It took time. Which was exactly the reaction of Israel following the 1972 Olympic Games attack. Operation ‘Wrath of God’ took years, and carefully targeted and killed those responsible - and yes some innocents were killed in the operation, which is regrettable but probably unavoidable.

The 2023 massacre of Israelis was and is utterly inexcusable and everyone involved in the planning and execution of it, yes, frankly needs to die. Fine.

In the days following the attack Israel had the sympathy of most of the World, but they have managed to burn that all away. To the point where now Israel is seen as the aggressor, in the wrong, needs to be stopped.....

How, just how have Israel managed to switch from being the victim to the aggressor. Is it Netanyahu’s desperation to avoid legal action for a while?