Conservative Party's chronicles

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Damien

In addition to that (I don't think we should ban it), the Tories' immigration plan is very much matching reform and quite nasty: https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/katie-...ent-5HjdFgC_2/

I'll link to the actual legislation: https://publications.parliament.uk/p...234/240234.pdf



This is a mass deportation of people who are here legally. There is no exception for pensioners who've since retired, whose salary is below £38,000, and who receive social protection in either pensions or other benefits. People who may have families here, lives here, have worked here, and who did everything legally and by the rules set out.

This isn't Reform. It's actually slightly worse than reform as far as I can see.

I don't like the way this country is going. I may be wrong but I also don't think most people in the country support this whatever they say on X.

They may be here legally, but they have no right to stay.

If they are foreign nationals that are on benefits, why do we want them here? When we have people that have served their country on the streets.

If you're not a british citizen and you've come here for work.....when the work stops then you go back. You shouldn't be allowed to collect benefits.

If you've married and/or had a family and made your life here, then become a british citizen.

---------- Post added at 11:30 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

and contributed to society.

For me, this is the bottom line.

The only think to agree is the length of time, and whether they're allowed to access benefits if they lose their job.


https://www.migrationcentral.co.uk/p...eign-nationals

Stop foreign nationals claiming benefits and you can plug Reeves' 22Billion black hole

Originally Posted by Pierre

They may be here legally, but they have no right to stay.

I think they do, if they've come here legally and fulfilled the requirements. To retrospectively remove that from everyone is a very radical policy. It goes beyond anything we've seen in Western countries, including Trump, who isn't going after Green card holders.

If they are foreign nationals that are on benefits, why do we want them here? When we have people that have served their country on the streets.

Well, it depends on the benefits and why, doesn't it? If someone has worked a decent amount of time and is in receipt of child benefit, or they've earned their state pension and paid NI contributions, then why not?

If you're not a british citizen and you've come here for work.....when the work stops then you go back. You shouldn't be allowed to collect benefits.

If you've married and/or had a family and made your life here, then become a british citizen.

This is a requirement that most countries don't ask of residents. It's why we have ILR, Green Cards and Visas. It also costs something like £2,000 to become a citizen.

The other thing here is the consequences to our relations with other countries when we embark on one of the most aggressive deportation policies that we can remember, including sending millions of EU citizens back to Europe.

This is all boiling frog in water stuff. We've gone from we have to stop the boats to the mass deportation of millions of legally here citizens, with the only exception being if they're currently working and earning more than £38,000. The BNP didn't go this far back in the early 2000s. I can't think of a recent democratic country that's gone this far.

The only saving grace is that it's completely unworkable.

[Sephiroth]

Didn’t the Germans do something similar to the Jews?

[Carth]

On the face of it, it does seem like a nasty indiscriminate policy . . depending on your views I guess.

It's a pity that the Government can't be as 'nasty' as this dealing with Drugs, Knife Crime, Gang Culture etc

I'd rather have safer streets than empty streets

[Sephiroth]

I feel safe in streets populated by people of Indian, Chinese, Jewish heritage.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I feel safe in streets populated by people of Indian, Chinese, Jewish heritage.

you won't like it here then

As I said, I don't think it will happen. It would cause havoc domestically as you tried to actually implement it. When people actually see the stories of pensioners having their pension taken away and told to leave, families split up, e.t.c, then it's not so easy to defend, and people will object. Not to mention how practically difficult it would become.

Internationally it would cause problems too. There are Brits in Europe with their equivalent of Leave to Remain who might be worried they would get the same treatment back.

I think they're only doing it to appeal to the Online right, the ones who spent a great deal of time judging other people's Englishness. Other than the polling, I have looked for right-wing reactions otherwise of X but could only find an article in The Spectator condemning it.

Still, it's a published policy from the party of the opposition so something to take seriously.

[Sephiroth]

Reform will need to reverse that policy. There would be a whole raft of laws they would need to introduce to negate common law and that would be beyond them or, indeed, any party that tried to govern through democratic institutions.

[1andrew1]

Are the Conservatives playing the long game here? They know they can't win the next election. By adopting this policy, they are encouraging Reform UK to continue with their policy knowing it will all fall apart if Reform UK try to deliver on it.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Damien

The other thing here is the consequences to our relations with other countries when we embark on one of the most aggressive deportation policies that we can remember, including sending millions of EU citizens back to Europe.

Let's not dance around the issue.

I don't think they'll be sending back EU citizens...........

Originally Posted by Pierre

Let's not dance around the issue.

I don't think they'll be sending back EU citizens...........

That's what the policy says. It's why I linked the actual draft legislation she introduced to make it clear that is what they are proposing. There is no exemption for previously EU citizens, nor pensioners, nor people who've been here 'x' amount of years. It's only receiving a salary in excess of £38,000 and not getting any benefits that allows you to stay.

Now, I don't think they'll do it either because it's unpopular and unworkable.

But that is what the proposal is. They like to signal one thing to one group, i.e telling the more radical right they want to do what the bill as introduced says, whilst then pretending it's liberal scaremongering when challenged on it.

It's not a healthy place to be when politicians are proposing wildly radical ideas, and we simply think they won't actually do it.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Reform will need to reverse that policy. There would be a whole raft of laws they would need to introduce to negate common law and that would be beyond them or, indeed, any party that tried to govern through democratic institutions.

Any new statute will over-ride common law previously in place, provided it is properly worded. Existing laws, rules, agreements and conventions can all be terminated or superseded. These things are not the major problems they are made out to be.

The House of Lords could be a problem, which is why Reform would have to be careful to set out what they wanted to do in their manifesto.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Any new statute will over-ride common law previously in place, provided it is properly worded. Existing laws, rules, agreements and conventions can all be terminated or superseded. These things are not the major problems they are made out to be.

The House of Lords could be a problem, which is why Reform would have to be careful to set out what they wanted to do in their manifesto.

I hope that you, OB, mindful of the comparison with 1930s Germany, would be opposed to this immature Reform policy.

The Government obviously can retrospectively change the Leave to Remain laws. If it's a good idea to do so, when you've essentially had an agreement with the people to whom you've offered it, is another question.

My main problem with it is the moral issue with kicking out people who've made their lives here, especially if they've been here for a long time, paid taxes and built families here. But it's also a stupid idea in terms of how confident people are that you'll uphold the agreements you'll make in future.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Damien

The Government obviously can retrospectively change the Leave to Remain laws. If it's a good idea to do so, when you've essentially had an agreement with the people to whom you've offered it, is another question.

My main problem with it is the moral issue with kicking out people who've made their lives here, especially if they've been here for a long time, paid taxes and built families here. But it's also a stupid idea in terms of how confident people are that you'll uphold the agreements you'll make in future.

Exactly. Where does OB stand on that point?