Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Damien

War reporters can also be embedded elsewhere in a conflict. The reason they're allowed in 'under IDF escort' is because the IDF then controls what they see, where they go and who they talk to. They don't even like reporters recording over Gaza as they fly because of the devastation they've levelled upon it.

https://news.sky.com/story/israels-b...stand-13385627

Hamas should have thought about all that before October 7th.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Hamas should have thought about all that before October 7th.

We don't look to Hamas to enforce journalistic freedom. If Hamas are banning journalists from Gaza then we can condemn them too. Still, at the moment, it's Israel preventing access to the conflict so there cannot be independent reporting on what they're doing, rather than being dependent on IDF press releases.

Hamas are a brutal terrorist organisation. We're all agreed on that. It would be better for everyone involved if they were to disappear forever. That doesn't even give Israel carte blanche to kill tens of thousands of Palestinians, 18,000 of whom are children.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Damien

We don't look to Hamas to enforce journalistic freedom. If Hamas are banning journalists from Gaza then we can condemn them too. Still, at the moment, it's Israel preventing access to the conflict so there cannot be independent reporting on what they're doing, rather than being dependent on IDF press releases.

Hamas are a brutal terrorist organisation. We're all agreed on that. It would be better for everyone involved if they were to disappear forever. That doesn't even give Israel carte blanche to kill tens of thousands of Palestinians, 18,000 of whom are children.

You're obviously right, But this obsession with journalistic freedom in the Gaza case is pointless. It's not as if we're starved of news about the goings on in Gaza.

But Hamas should have thought about that. Didn't we flatten much of Germany in order to smash Hitler?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You're obviously right, But this obsession with journalistic freedom in the Gaza case is pointless. It's not as if we're starved of news about the goings on in Gaza.

But Hamas should have thought about that. Didn't we flatten much of Germany in order to smash Hitler?

Freedom of information should not be derided as an obsession. It's what our values are built upon. Not only are we starved of news about Gaza but any remaining reporters there are being starved.

---------- Post added at 09:29 ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

So is yours to HAMAS apologist main stream media.

You show me a conflict were journalists have had had unfettered access to front line war.

Journalists have been allowed in Gaza under IDF escort, as is normal in front line war zones.

Mainstream media is not Hamas apologist. That's a preposterous thing to say and you supply no evidence to back up the claim.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Freedom of information should not be derided as an obsession. It's what our values are built upon. Not only are we starved of news about Gaza but any remaining reporters there are being starved.

---------- Post added at 09:29 ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 ----------


Mainstream media is not Hamas apologist. That's a preposterous thing to say and you supply no evidence to back up the claim.

Freedom of information should not be derided as an obsession. It's what our values are built upon. Not only are we starved of news about Gaza but any remaining reporters there are being starved

Jeez - this is holier than thou crap - and twisted beyond reason. Our values are better built upon calling Israel out for high civilian casualties than worrying about whether or not journos are allowed into Gaza. Our values are also better built by understanding that when you strip this back to Hamas, those cruel *******s could have released the hostages ages ago to spare their flock the grief they're getting now. Starving reporters - what next?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Starving reporters - what next?

Starving hostages? Net's got you covered here too.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

[COLOR="Blue"]You're obviously right, But this obsession with journalistic freedom in the Gaza case is pointless. It's not as if we're starved of news about the goings on in Gaza.

No, but the lack of access allows Israel to obfuscate what is happening. We can post news, death figures from Gaza and Israel will deny it. News organisations ask for access so they can see, Israel says No.

Look at the story a few months ago where medics responding to a casualty were themselves killed. They denied it, not knowing someone had recorded it. Then it was a 'mistake'. https://news.sky.com/video/phone-foo...rkers-13342941

We get the truth when there is verification from independent sources.

But Hamas should have thought about that. Didn't we flatten much of Germany in order to smash Hitler?

Again, I don't care if Hamas should have thought it because I am not expecting much morality and concern for life from a terrorist organisation that targets innocent civilians at a music festival. Again, what Hamas did is not a justification for what Israel is doing now to innocent civilians.

[Sephiroth]

Look, it's dead simple:

1. Hamas militarily & murderously invades Israel in October 2023, taking hostages.

2. Israel retaliates to destroy Hamas, which eventually involves levelling much of Gaza.

3. Israel reminds Hamas that this can stop if they release remaining hostages.

4. Israel continues trying to destroy Hamas with awful civilian consequences.

5. .... continuing.

Europe isn't helping and might well be stiffening Israel's resolve. The recognition of a Palestinian state in these volatile circumstances sends a signal to Israel that elections in Palestine (which are well overdue) would return a Hamas administration (or its renamed equivalent).

The Netanyahu government is a bad egg because of the nasty orthodox party. But that bad egg still needs to eliminate Hamas and the bad egg element is not doing its best to protect innocent civilians in Gaza. Very complex and difficult to resolve.

First step is for Hamas to release the remaining hostages. That is the key to reducing Gazan suffering. Hamas is a badder egg than Netanyahu.

Then the Gazans can be employed to rebuild Gaza, perhaps in the mould of Dubai, to bring prosperity to the region.

[Carth]

This is all getting to be the same as those strikes on the nuclear centrifuges.

One side says they're destroyed, the other side says pfft you didn't even scratch us.

Did we ever find out by independent 'boots on the ground' or did it just fade because better stories came along?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Damien

War reporters can also be embedded elsewhere in a conflict. The reason they're allowed in 'under IDF escort' is because the IDF then controls what they see, where they go and who they talk to. They don't even like reporters recording over Gaza as they fly because of the devastation they've levelled upon it.

https://news.sky.com/story/israels-b...stand-13385627

Yes reporters can be "embedded" but that does not give them unfettered access, and they will go were the unit they are embedded with go, and they will do exactly what the soldiers tell them to do, and if the soldiers tell them to stay where they are, they will stay where they are and they will see what the soldiers around them want them to see.

---------- Post added at 10:27 ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Freedom of information should not be derided as an obsession. It's what our values are built upon. Not only are we starved of news about Gaza but any remaining reporters there are being starved.

---------- Post added at 09:29 ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 ----------


Mainstream media is not Hamas apologist. That's a preposterous thing to say and you supply no evidence to back up the claim.

anybody that takes the word of the Hamas Ministry of Health as Gospel is treated with suspicion.

And you only have to listen to the many, many reports given by Jeremy Bowen to know which side he's on.

---------- Post added at 10:32 ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

No, but the lack of access allows Israel to obfuscate what is happening. We can post news, death figures from Gaza and Israel will deny it. News organisations ask for access so they can see, Israel says No.

That's a very naive view.

Reporters were embedded with UK and US troops and they were shown exactly what they needed to be shown and the UK and US control the narrative.

The difference is if you embedded reporters with the IDF, regardless, no one would believe the reporting unless it showed the cold blooded murder of Palestinians. Israel would be on a hiding to nothing, so why bother in the first place.

Originally Posted by Pierre

Yes reporters can be "embedded" but that does not give them unfettered access, and they will go were the unit they are embedded with go, and they will do exactly what the soldiers tell them to do, and if the soldiers tell them to stay where they are, they will stay where they are and they will see what the soldiers around them want them to see.

The embedded reporters are those on the front-line reporting on that effort. It's not the entirety of reporting on war. For example, in the 2003 Iraq War, there were reporters embedded with front-line troops and reporters in Baghdad. In the Syrian Civil War, there were reporters based in Damascus.

There are still reporters in Kyiv and Moscow right now, even as Kyiv is being bombed.

The only difference is that none of these conflicts had one participant who could control access to the entire country/zone. Since Israel controls the Gaza Strip they do, and they're using this to limit any independent reporting of what is happening there.

That's a very naive view.

Reporters were embedded with UK and US troops and they were shown exactly what they needed to be shown and the UK and US control the narrative.

Reporters embedded with the troops in Iraq were only getting roughly what the UK/US wanted to see. But they were actually embedded, not taken on guided tours, so their access was greater. I somehow doubt the IDF would let an independent journalist be with them all the time on the front line.

And as mentioned, reporters were elsewhere in Iraq.

The difference is if you embedded reporters with the IDF, regardless, no one would believe the reporting unless it showed the cold blooded murder of Palestinians. Israel would be on a hiding to nothing, so why bother in the first place.

Well, what can it hurt if there is not a lot of killing of innocent civilians? As mentioned with the medics who were killed Israel just denied it until there was actual video and they had to admit to 'a mistake'.

You call me naive, but you're defending a system where the only information that comes out of Gaza is controlled by the IDF. Might as well just repost IDF press releases on here instead of arguing about it.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Damien

You call me naive, but you're defending a system where the only information that comes out of Gaza is controlled by the IDF.

Indeed, we're seeing more projection there than at your average Odeon on a Saturday night!

Originally Posted by Damien

Might as well just repost IDF press releases on here instead of arguing about it.

You may jest, but we've seen that with re-posting of stories from a strongly pro-Israel advocacy group and the criticism of objective sources based on their being 'mainstream'.