UK Energy Prices

Originally Posted by downquark1

They really need to specify an end state for renewables, the grid swings around wildly depending on the weather already. This leads to instability and could cause blackouts like in Spain. They need to lay out when we have "enough" renewables.

It’s the lack of inertia from big heavy turbines that’s the issue in a grid largely powered by renewables, not the renewables themselves. But you can build stuff in to replicate what was, after all, an accidental benefit of heavy steam turbines and not something that was deliberately built in as such. Asking when we have ‘enough’ renewable generation is the wrong question with regard to sudden loss of generation.

If you wanted an exclusively renewable-powered grid you would need overcapacity in wind and solar generation backed by enormous amounts of storage. There are various ways of storing energy - most hydro schemes in Scotland of any size are pumped storage. You can use battery installations; molten salt technologies are likely to prove useful at scale. You can even use excess power to electrolyse water and store energy as hydrogen, which can then be used to refill fuel cells or added to the public gas supply to reduce the demand for fossil gas.

Even so, the most reliable way to produce base load requirement is likely to be a fleet of small modular nuclear reactors in many more locations - in a way that will take us back to what things looked like in the 1960s with a large number of lower-output Magnox reactors in many more locations, as opposed to the fewer, much larger reactors we have relied on more recently (and which we are finally building again now).

[downquark1]

That is not the entire story. Renewables energy introduces additional grid oscillations which require extra work to control.

There are ways of storing energy but really they aren't all that great. We just don't one want a situation where we have absurd amounts of energy one minute and zero energy the next.

For instance if everyone has solar panels they become obsolete since electricity on the grid would be free whenever the sun shines and when the sun isn't shining the power is expensive again.

Originally Posted by downquark1

That is not the entire story. Renewables energy introduces additional grid oscillations which require extra work to control.

I believe I addressed that:

Originally Posted by Me

you can build stuff in to replicate what was, after all, an accidental benefit of heavy steam turbines and not something that was deliberately built in as such

Originally Posted by DQ

There are ways of storing energy but really they aren't all that great. We just don't one want a situation where we have absurd amounts of energy one minute and zero energy the next.

For instance if everyone has solar panels they become obsolete since electricity on the grid would be free whenever the sun shines and when the sun isn't shining the power is expensive again.

All you’re really doing here is rehearsing a 21st century version of the AC/DC debate that raged in the late 19th century. We need to generate and distribute power in the way that works best, however now our definition of best includes considerations around environmental sustainability. It’s no use saying a particular method isn’t all that great - time and time again we see when there is a market for something, that drives innovation.

We need batteries like never before, and that demand has driven improvement. The best Lithium Ion batteries can hold 50% more power than they could 10 years ago, and the most recent designs are more resistant to degradation from max-charging them.

Lots here: https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...der-your-nose/

[Taf]

We live on an island surrounded by the sea, so why is tidal power generation always getting blocked on "environmental grounds"?

A barrage from near Cardiff to Weston-super-Mare has been touted for many, many years, but it gets blocked to "protect migratory birds' feeding grounds". The whole idea is that rising sea levels are allowed past a barrage, then released through turbines before the tide starts to rise again. So the "feeding grounds" get exposed twice a day.

Originally Posted by Taf

We live on an island surrounded by the sea, so why is tidal power generation always getting blocked on "environmental grounds"?

A barrage from near Cardiff to Weston-super-Mare has been touted for many, many years, but it gets blocked to "protect migratory birds' feeding grounds". The whole idea is that rising sea levels are allowed past a barrage, then released through turbines before the tide starts to rise again. So the "feeding grounds" get exposed twice a day.

They don’t get exposed in the same way they do naturally because the barrage and the turbines change the rate at which the tide comes in and out. They also fundamentally alter the way water flows in an estuary with not entirely predictable results. Given how critical these grounds are for a very large number of birds, the risk is too great. Creating an environmental catastrophe in the name of solving another one is not sensible.

There are other ways of exploiting tidal flow energy, such as creating reservoirs within the estuary that fill and empty with the tide, which would operate on a smaller scale than damming the entire thing. There are also turbines which can be placed somewhere there is a particularly rapid tidal flow.

Orbital Marine are pioneers in this area and they have successfully demonstrated a 2 megawatt turbine in some particularly fast-flowing tidal streams around Orkney. They’re now moving to full production and expect to be deploying commercial tidal generation machinery next year.

https://www.orbitalmarine.com/o2-x/

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

In time, they will and if you want to speed the process up, petition/advocate/vote for a Party that will get the reduced costs passed on now.

In time……not helping anyone now is it? What’s the point?

What's the alternative?

Cheaper gas?

As Chris explained, any oil fracked in the UK is sold at global market rates so there's no silver bullet.

Change it.

For both.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

In time……not helping anyone now is it? What’s the point?

Neither is a half-built road or house. Only when it's reached critical mass or politicians' arms can be twisted will we benefit from the cheaper cost of renewables.

Originally Posted by Pierre

Cheaper gas?

Change it.

For both.

Pretty sure if that was remotely possible and beneficial someone would have tried it by now.

It’s more than remotely possible to nationalise oil/gas production and/or requisition output for domestic consumption only. But there is a penalty in terms of our standing as a place to invest and do business. That’s why we don’t do it, and would not do it except in a crisis.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Chris

It’s more than remotely possible to nationalise oil/gas production and/or requisition output for domestic consumption only. But there is a penalty in terms of our standing as a place to invest and do business. That’s why we don’t do it, and would not do it except in a crisis.

Yup, it's a trade off and if it was worthwhile doing everything considered, it would have been done by now.

Price Cap dropping by 7% in July.

Despite this people are being encouraged to switch to fixed.

Households are being urged to shop around for cheaper energy deals despite prices falling from July.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn7zdzz83y0o