Smart Meters and Tariffs

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Taf

Answer me this. Why have so many governments demanded of energy suppliers that they be installed or face fines if they do not?

I'm still no wiser as to why some people don't want a meter fitted.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I'm still no wiser as to why some people don't want a meter fitted.

Because in theory suppliers could implement widespread, forced peak pricing rather than run small scale experiments as other users here have been trying, making electricity usage a more serious poverty issue than it presently is.

Also, smart meters are capable of metering KVA/h rather than kW/h, which, if they were allowed to, would increase everyone’s bill (though not uniformly - it would very much depend on what sort of appliances you’re running and how efficient they are).

kVA is kilovolt-amps, whereas kW is kilowatts. I’m oversimplifying but kilowatts measures what you usefully consume in your home, while kilowatt amps is the way you measure what the power company has to actually supply you. There is, naturally, wastage, but at present the company is only allowed to meter and bill you for what you have made use of, and not the total amount they actually supplied to you. Industrial users are billed for kVA/h supplied rather than kW/h consumed.

Peak pricing requires you to give permission for 30 minute readings, which you can opt out of.
I'm not 100% sure of the legal position, but I dont believe they can actually force the inteval on you.

There are (were) plans to make 30 mins the default, but you could still change it to daily (or even monthly).

[downquark1]

They also allow things like prepaid modes that can easily cut off your gas if you aren't paying, which is a major problem in some sectors of society.

[Taf]

Originally Posted by Chris

Because in theory suppliers could implement widespread, forced peak pricing rather than run small scale experiments as other users here have been trying, making electricity usage a more serious poverty issue than it presently is.

Also, smart meters are capable of metering KVA/h rather than kW/h, which, if they were allowed to, would increase everyone’s bill (though not uniformly - it would very much depend on what sort of appliances you’re running and how efficient they are).

This. Energy companies worldwide have been clamouring for this change for over decades. And only smart meters allow them to do so easily. Many large factories with fixed equipment that chews up lots of electricity have large capacitors fitted to prevent the phase shift of the supply that causes the Energy companies to lose money. They opt to be charged at KVA/h rates, as it is to their advantage.

We are in the "carrot" phase of smart metering, with cheaper off-peak rates being offered to get people to have them installed.

But once electricity storage is rolled-out, there will be no excess to be sold off cheaply to customers, as it will be diverted to batteries, Pumped Storage Hydropower (PSH), or hydrogen-oxygen electrolysis systems.

Then, as Chris said, pricing will move to the "stick" phase, where we will be charged more at peak times or at any other time when demand is high. We already see the markets rasing the price of natural gas in the colder months, and this would shift to electricity too.

---------- Post added at 09:49 ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

I didn’t realise the Governments were in charge of all the Energy Companies in all those countries…

Who is fining the energy companies for not rolling-out smart meter installations fast enough?

Energy suppliers British Gas, OVO, Bulb, E.ON, Scottish Power and SSE will pay out a total of £10.8 million after missing smart meter installation targets for 2022.

The firms fell short of the installation targets set for 2022, culminating in a shortfall to install a total of 1,026,628 smart meters by the required deadline.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/press-relea...n-targets-2022

---------- Post added at 10:15 ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 ----------

There are 2 other "sticks" waiting in the wings. Water use and Road Charging (aka Pay Per Mile).

If you don't have a water meter, you are charged according to the Rateable Value of your home. If you do have one, some households can save money by reducing usage, or already have low usage. But when the majority have them, the model will change to purely the amount used. And that will allow sudden price increases that will make OFWAT blink.

And it is patently obvious, and in many cases already policy, to roll out Road Charging with rates dependent on where and when you drive. Wales already has a National Transport Delivery Plan (2022 to 2027) with it included. When asked if Road Charging will happen in Wales, the then First Minister replied that there were no plans to have it on TRUNK roads. He was very careful about the words he used.

So, back to the benefits of a smart meter … having watched how Octopus has managed my car charging for the past 3 nights, I’m now sure that what they’re doing, every day, is setting up a charging schedule based on what they believe will be most efficient for the network, but the details of the schedule absolutely does change by the time you get to late evening. Last night i expected my meter to light up at 11.30pm with something drawing 7kW but there was nowt - so i checked the app again and it had decided not to charge until 2am. This morning the app shows that’s exactly what did happen - screenshot below. The blips after midnight are the dishwasher, now happily running every night at 7p instead of our previous flexible rate of 24p.

[downquark1]

Does the time chosen differ from the cheapest agile time :s ?

Intelligent GO is cheap rate (7.0p per kW/h) every night from 11.30pm until 5.30am. There may also be other unspecified cheap blocks of time at any other time of day but they don’t tell you if or when they might arise. They are controlling my charger via an API to its manufacturer and I no longer have any control over when scheduled charges will occur (but I can push a button to start one manually at any time, at the prevailing rate).

So I can’t say what’s cheapest because I don’t know how cheap agile goes and I don’t know the extent to which Octopus might decide to do a sudden bonus charge at some other time of day.

[downquark1]

The GO tariff is an artificial price (based on octopus' calculated averages). Agile is more representative of the wholesale prices (what octopus actually pays for the electricity).

You can see the agile prices here https://www.octopriceuk.app/agile

What I imagine they would do is activate your charge at the cheapest wholesale time of the night (which should correspond to the cheapest agile time). That way they will maximise their profit.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I'm still no wiser as to why some people don't want a meter fitted.

Because I took a day off during covid times to have one fitted and the installer came took one look at it and made an excuse about not being able to turn the power off and left. I hate getting up early and I wasted a holiday day for that so feck 'em, I'm not having one, I'd rather change suppliers and let them fit it. I get letters and calls asking me to reconsider but I won't, although I also get at least one text or letter a month from them reminding me to top the meter up, that's more annoying

Originally Posted by downquark1

Does the time chosen differ from the cheapest agile time ?

Its actually not very often that Agile goes as low as 7p, I think the last time was Jan 1st.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by Paul

Its actually not very often that Agile goes as low as 7p, I think the last time was Jan 1st.

That's not the point

Originally Posted by downquark1

That's not the point

Perhaps you’d be good enough to tell us what your point is then?

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by Chris

Perhaps you’d be good enough to tell us what your point is then?

The go tariff also "over charges" you for the rest of the day. Octopus have done some calculations so they recon they are breaking even or even making a profit in most cases for most people. They are not giving you this tariff out of charity.

The point being that they will control for the best time at night which is when the gas production is lowest (when wind is highest) leading (in combination to other factors) to the lowest wholesale price which should be the lowest agile price.

It would not exactly be difficult to prove me wrong.

My day rate is one penny higher than the flexible rate I was paying 24 hours a day previously (25p from 24p). My night rate is 17p cheaper and there are a couple of other power-hungry things I can shift to that period by use of a timer. I’m also father to a power-hungry student who is quasi-nocturnal so powering her lifestyle is now instantly cheaper.

I did some calculations before I signed up for this and I knew in advance I’d immediately be better off despite the day rate going up a fraction (which is likely intended to encourage users to switch usage to overnight if they can) Whether that proves you wrong or not I have no idea. It works for me, and that’s all I’m bothered about.