Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[jfman]

Framing and context is everything to Israeli sympathisers and Zionists. It’s the mechanism by which they maintain their status as the perpetual victim, as opposed to an active participant in decades long struggle where the vast majority of casualties, and bombs dropped by tonnage, are on the other side.

It’s the mechanism by which Palestinian deaths portrayed as a price worth paying.

Neither Amnesty nor anyone else are obliged to indulge such a ludicrous proposition.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

Way to wilfully misunderstand the point.

My problem is with Amnesty, not the question of what crimes have occurred in Israel/Gaza over the past year and a bit.

Framing and context is everything here, and Amnesty’s context and framing is evident from page one, line one of its report.

Would anyone like to take a wild guess at what actually happened on 7 October?

To paraphrase Pierre, Amnesty are a Gnat’s pube away from claiming about 6,000 Gazans and 4,000 unguided missiles didn’t cross the border into Israel that day. They may never say the words, but in their pronouncements they sure as heck are aiming to bury the truth.

Just a few lines further down in the report:

Early that morning, Hamas fighters indiscriminately fired a barrage of rockets into Israel and, joined by fighters from other Palestinian armed groups, breached the border fence that surrounds Gaza. Hamas and other armed groups attacked civilian and military targets, carrying out deliberate mass killings, summary killings and other abuses, causing suffering and physical injuries. They destroyed civilian property by burning houses, making them uninhabitable and causing the internal displacement of civilians. They abducted 223 civilians, Israeli and foreigners, including children, and captured 27 Israeli soldiers. Some of their actions constituted war crimes under international law. With approximately 1,200 people killed, over 800 of them civilians, including at least 36 children, these were the deadliest single-day attacks in Israel’s history. Amnesty International’s detailed findings about the crimes perpetrated by Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups in the context of their attacks on Israel on 7 October 2023 are the focus of a forthcoming publication

Mmm. “Coming soon” … funny how they’re still working on *one day* of savagery more than a year on, despite it being recorded and live streamed by the perpetrators, while they’ve apparently spared no effort to wade through an entire year’s worth of material on the opposite side in order to get their report out condemning Israel.

As I said, context and framing is everything. Putting the very reason this latest round of bloodletting began downpage, rather than at the top where it belongs, is a deliberate editorial choice. As is leaving out words like ‘rape’ and ‘torture’, for which there is copious video evidence. Amnesty clearly wishes to downplay, to the maximum extent it can get away with, the fact that Hamas initiated this and nothing that has been done to Gaza or its people in the last year would have happened were it not for this.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

the fact that Hamas initiated this and nothing that has been done to Gaza or its people in the last year would have happened were it not for this.

It is comments like this that are used to turn a blind eye to what has been done to the Palestinians: "Well if Hamas had not attacked us, we would have not needed to kill all the innocent men, women & children". The focus on how bad Amnesty is and not the events they are reporting on is disturbing ...

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

Mmm. “Coming soon” … funny how they’re still working on *one day* of savagery more than a year on, despite it being recorded and live streamed by the perpetrators, while they’ve apparently spared no effort to wade through an entire year’s worth of material on the opposite side in order to get their report out condemning Israel.

As I said, context and framing is everything. Putting the very reason this latest round of bloodletting began downpage, rather than at the top where it belongs, is a deliberate editorial choice. As is leaving out words like ‘rape’ and ‘torture’, for which there is copious video evidence. Amnesty clearly wishes to downplay, to the maximum extent it can get away with, the fact that Hamas initiated this and nothing that has been done to Gaza or its people in the last year would have happened were it not for this.

Hamas don’t have a monopoly on rape or torture in the conflict, as demonstrated by the prisoners brutalised at the hands of the IDF in the absence of trials or evidence. Indeed the IDF slaughtered Israeli hostages for having the audacity to approach them with a white t-shirt waving as if to be a white flag. Heinous does not begin to cover it - the day in, day out existence of the Palestinian people.

It may suit you to deploy such evidence as examples to create an emotive response - indeed the Israeli state has done so effectively alongside the “40 beheaded babies”. None of this, absolutely none, would justifiy a genocide.

Originally Posted by ianch99

It is comments like this that are used to turn a blind eye to what has been done to the Palestinians: "Well if Hamas had not attacked us, we would have not needed to kill all the innocent men, women & children". The focus on how bad Amnesty is and not the events they are reporting on is disturbing ...

No, it isn’t. Do please stop trying to use emotive nonsense to police other forum users’ choices about what and how they discuss.

This is a discussion forum, not a virtue signalling forum. We’ve been here more than 20 years, and in that time we have always freely discussed issues from various angles. We are here to discuss, not to recite approved opinions.

Right now, I choose to discuss Amnesty’s choice to pick political sides, which they very obviously are doing, on this and other issues, over what they once had a reputation for, i.e. calling out injustice without favour.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Just a few lines further down in the report:

carrying out deliberate mass killings,

Look forward to seeing the evidence.

---------- Post added at 18:36 ---------- Previous post was at 18:34 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

It is comments like this that are used to turn a blind eye to what has been done to the Palestinians.

It’s comments like this that are totally irrelevant to what’s taken place over the last 14 months

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

No, it isn’t. Do please stop trying to use emotive nonsense to police other forum users’ choices about what and how they discuss.

This is a discussion forum, not a virtue signalling forum. We’ve been here more than 20 years, and in that time we have always freely discussed issues from various angles. We are here to discuss, not to recite approved opinions.

Right now, I choose to discuss Amnesty’s choice to pick political sides, which they very obviously are doing, on this and other issues, over what they once had a reputation for, i.e. calling out injustice without favour.

I sense that it is only your view that matters here and any contrary position is "virtue signalling" or "emotive nonsense". So be it ...

Originally Posted by ianch99

"Well if Hamas had not attacked us, we would have not ...

Seems correct, if Hamas had not attacked, Israel would not have responded. Do you have proof otherwise ?

Of course, you forgot to mention that Hamas "killed innocent men, women & children", funny how you missed that ....

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

Seems correct, if Hamas had not attacked, Israel would not have responded. Do you have proof otherwise ?

Of course, you forgot to mention that Hamas "killed innocent men, women & children", funny how you missed that ....

Nobody missed that - it gets mentioned often enough - it’s the tens of thousands of slaughtered Palestinians that get overlooked. Efforts to make October 7th day 1 in the conflict erase decades of Palestinian suffering and occupation. Framing it that way, so to speak.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Nobody missed that - it gets mentioned often enough -

As so it should.

Had Oct 7th not happened, none of this would have happened. The fault lies squarely at the feet of Hamas.

And let’s not forget why it happened. You and Ian can quote decades of oppression La, La La.

But you know it was orchestrated because of the Abraham accords, the normalisation of relations between Israel and other Middle Eastern nations, especially Saudi Arabia ( that has no interest in continuing hostilities, they are for economic advancement not medieval religious bullshit.


Iran could see the direction of travel and acted.

The Palestinians are expendable to Iran and Qatar and Hamas, they’re happy to see them die.

The IDF/Israel care more for their lives than Hamas do.

Efforts to make October 7th day 1 in the conflict erase decades of Palestinian suffering and occupation. Framing it that way, so to speak.

To trot out this argument, implies deep naivety, bordering on ignorance, as to why Oct 7th really happened.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

As so it should.

Had Oct 7th not happened, none of this would have happened. The fault lies squarely at the feet of Hamas.

And let’s not forget why it happened. You and Ian can quote decades of oppression La, La La.

But you know it was orchestrated because of the Abraham accords, the normalisation of relations between Israel and other Middle Eastern nations, especially Saudi Arabia ( that has no interest in continuing hostilities, they are for economic advancement not medieval religious bullshit.

Iran could see the direction of travel and acted.

The Palestinians are expendable to Iran and Qatar and Hamas, they’re happy to see them die.

The IDF/Israel care more for their lives than Hamas do.

To trot out this argument, implies deep naivety, bordering on ignorance, as to why Oct 7th really happened.

Neither does the fact that other countries are happy to sacrifice Palestinians as pawns justify a genocide. If Iran and Qatar are pulling the strings they should pay the price. Hope that helps.

And no, it doesn’t require centring Israeli suffering in the narrative to justify one.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

If Iran and Qatar are pulling the strings they should pay the price. Hope that helps.

That’s the weakest response to this subject I’ve seen from you in the last year to 18 months.

And it’s absolutely expected.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

That’s the weakest response to this subject I’ve seen from you in the last year to 18 months.

And it’s absolutely expected.

I suspect international law would say otherwise - punishing entirely different people for crimes they didn't commit on the basis of proximity/ethnicity or any other reason usually doesn't go down too well.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jfman

I suspect international law would say otherwise - punishing entirely different people for crimes they didn't commit on the basis of proximity/ethnicity or any other reason usually doesn't go down too well.

Cue, "yeah but 7 October, proportionate response"