Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

They are prosecuting a military operation to eradicate a terrorist organisation.

Not a mutually exclusive position from committing a genocide neither does that justify carrying out one.

No state can invent a narrowly defined objective and pursue it at unlimited cost to human life.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by jfman

Not a mutually exclusive position from committing a genocide neither does that justify carrying out one.

No state can invent a narrowly defined objective and pursue it at unlimited cost to human life.

well they have

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Itshim

Just a thought nothing more . During the IRAs campaign in the UK.Should the UK have bombed Dublin and other known locations.

Did the IRA invade main land U.K., and murder near 2 million people?

---------- Post added at 18:37 ---------- Previous post was at 18:35 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Whether Hamas are banned (or not) in the shell of a Palestinian state that Israel occupies is irrelevant as to whether the destruction of it, it’s hospitals, it’s schools, it’s mosques, it’s churches, it’s museums and the displacement of 2 million people are justified.

By all mean necessary unfortunately.


They must be made to know that their tactic of using their citizens as a human shield no longer will work.

---------- Post added at 18:40 ---------- Previous post was at 18:37 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Not a mutually exclusive position from committing a genocide neither does that justify carrying out one.

No state can invent a narrowly defined objective and pursue it at unlimited cost to human life.

It’s not an unlimited cost though. As historical military operations go it one that killed the fewest innocents v combatants ever.

Feel free to research that.

[Itshim]

[QUOTE=Pierre;36187214]Did the IRA invade main land U.K., and murder near 2 million people?
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Doesn't answer the question . Should any country attack the bolt holes of terrorists.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Did the IRA invade main land U.K., and murder near 2 million people?

---------- Post added at 18:37 ---------- Previous post was at 18:35 ----------


By all mean necessary unfortunately.

They must be made to know that their tactic of using their citizens as a human shield no longer will work.

There's no basis for this in international law, to the extent that it exists at all.

It's not merely the killing of civilians - mainly women and children - it's the systematic destruction of infrastructure and institutions. The blockading of international aid, food and medical supplies of no military value.

That justification taken to the extreme would support enacting a genocide on the basis of it being unknown whether any Hamas militants remained down to the last single Palestinian. Which is why it's no justification at all.

---------- Post added at 18:48 ---------- Previous post was at 18:45 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

It’s not an unlimited cost though. As historical military operations go it one that killed the fewest innocents v combatants ever.

Feel free to research that.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine has killed less civilians and decimated far more of the Ukranian armed forces as a ratio. Nobody is holding that up as a humanitarian success story. Quite the opposite.

Israel would have eliminated Hamas many multiples of times over at even a 1:1 ratio. Ukranian civilian casualties to military ones are about 1:6. That's with a conservative estimate of Ukranian military casualties which are disputed since the US are now pressuring Ukraine to lower the age of conscription to 18.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Itshim;36187217]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Did the IRA invade main land U.K., and murder near 2 million people?
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Doesn't answer the question . Should any country attack the bolt holes of terrorists.

Yes.

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Originally Posted by jfman

There's no basis for this in inter………….

The way see it, Israel have to eradicate Hamas totally, removing the potential for it to ever resurrect itself.

They are not targeting all Palestinians, because of the fact that they are Palestinians.

Hamas must be eradicated, however, I do concede that I don’t know how Israel will know how or when they have achieved that aim……….

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

well they have

Indeed they have. The perverse irony for those who are content with the killing of tens of thousands of innocent men, women & children in pursuit of Hamas is that this very action will lead to another generation of Palestinians seeking vengeance for their parents, loved ones, etc.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

They are not targeting all Palestinians, because of the fact that they are Palestinians.

Is that true of the women and children killed by snipers or are they just a bad shot?

Israel may have legitimate aims - nobody disputes that. Whether their reckless disregard of Palestinian life amounts to a genocide or not seems like semantics at this stage. It's not credible that destroying 50%+ of the buildings in Gaza, and every functioning hospital, is proportionate in response, whether a Hamas militant was hiding in them or otherwise.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Indeed they have. The perverse irony for those who are content with the killing of tens of thousands of innocent men, women & children in pursuit of Hamas

Nobody is content with it, an emotive claim you continually make. What makes you think anyone is “content” with it?

You have a weird concept of what war entails .

is that this very action will lead to another generation of Palestinians seeking vengeance for their parents, loved ones, etc.

Well, getting rid of UNRWA will help with that.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Nobody is content with it, an emotive claim you continually make. What makes you think anyone is “content” with it?

You have a weird concept of what war entails .

Well, getting rid of UNRWA will help with that.

Terrorism just evolves if there's enough people who feel the sense of injustice or willing to take coin of their paymasters whomever that may be. Look at the former Al Quaeda former ISIS types the west are currently cheering on in Syria because it's politically opportune.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Is that true of the women and children killed by snipers or are they just a bad shot?

I would have see independent evidence of that within any context of obtaining it.

Israel may have legitimate aims - nobody disputes that. Whether their reckless disregard of Palestinian life amounts to a genocide or not seems like semantics at this stage. It's not credible that destroying 50%+ of the buildings in Gaza, and every functioning hospital, is proportionate in response, whether a Hamas militant was hiding in them or otherwise.

Depends what’s within, or underneath, said hospitals, schools and mosques etc.

All that said, we now a well into 12 months of this operation and Israel now need to look at the end game and start to finalise this operation.

As I would be concerned of the reasoning for this to continue beyond Q1 2025.

Israel should have complete control of Gaza, and have discovered all the tunnels and command centres.

I’m hoping Trump can influence the Hamas millionaires in Qatar to capitulate, or find themselves in the cross hairs.

[jfman]

There’s no credible evidence of Hamas operating in or under hospitals, mosques, schools or otherwise from a source other than the IDF. Even the staged photos after the fact have been kept to carefully vetted journalists who can only report under carefully controlled conditions.

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Originally Posted by Pierre

I would have see independent evidence of that within any context of obtaining it.

Well, quite.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

There’s no credible evidence of Hamas operating in or under hospitals, mosques, schools or otherwise from a source other than the IDF.

Whilst I take your point…….that is a massive stretch. In my opinion. You can believe what you wish to believe but given that Hamas are on record as stating that they do make their bases below schools and hospitals as a matter of policy, that the IDF report as much does not come as surprise, nor does it cast into doubt the validity of the evidence.

Even the staged photos after the fact have been kept to carefully vetted journalists who can only report under carefully controlled conditions.

Show me a “proven” to be staged photo, and I’ll look at it.

I think you are a gnats cock hair away from telling me that Oct 7th never happened, that it was an Israeli inside job, staged, so that they could invade Gaza, because they’ve been wanting to do it for ages.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I think you are a gnats cock hair away from telling me that Oct 7th never happened, that it was an Israeli inside job, staged, so that they could invade Gaza, because they’ve been wanting to do it for ages.

Come on now Pierre, we both know this isn’t true.

Originally Posted by jfman

There’s nothing “progressive hard left” about the observation Israel are committing a genocide. To claim otherwise fails tbe “what if it was Putin?” test.

Way to wilfully misunderstand the point.

My problem is with Amnesty, not the question of what crimes have occurred in Israel/Gaza over the past year and a bit.

Framing and context is everything here, and Amnesty’s context and framing is evident from page one, line one of its report.



Would anyone like to take a wild guess at what actually happened on 7 October?

To paraphrase Pierre, Amnesty are a Gnat’s pube away from claiming about 6,000 Gazans and 4,000 unguided missiles didn’t cross the border into Israel that day. They may never say the words, but in their pronouncements they sure as heck are aiming to bury the truth.