Russia has invaded Ukraine - Page 197

jfman · 28-06-2024, 14:17

I’m not entertaining your insults or your xenophobic/racist rhetoric. If you don’t consider Russian victims of US enabled Ukrainian attacks as victims, or worthy of civilian status in disputed territory, that says far more about you than me. It also explains your notable absence from condemning Israeli atrocities in Gaza. Wrong type of victim for our pip.

Foreign policy dictated by western exceptionalism (at best, racism at worst) is doomed to failure, hence your blind spot for Ukraine’s inevitable partition.

**Paul** · 28-06-2024, 15:25

Posts removed, thats enough of the playground antics.

jfman · 29-06-2024, 09:24

Another day, another Pravda article about Ukrainian men not wanting to fight and corruption within the conscription process.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ar...e-conscription

Only joking it’s the Guardian. Pjotr better watch himself or he could be off to the meat grinder.

**Chris** · 29-06-2024, 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

Another day, another Pravda article about Ukrainian men not wanting to fight and corruption within the conscription process.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ar...e-conscription

Only joking it’s the Guardian. Pjotr better watch himself or he could be off to the meat grinder.

It’s curious how frequently you adopt the Russian tactic of accusing Ukraine of doing what in fact it is Russia that is doing. ‘Meat grinder’ is, of course, a far more apt description of the massive casualty rate on the Russian side, which is using human wave tactics to try to soak up Western munitions used by Ukraine. Casualties in excess of half a million and climbing.

But of course you already know all this.

jfman · 29-06-2024, 11:57

I’m sure it looks just like a meat grinder whether you are a Russian advancing or a Ukrainian retreating. The article linked, albeit vaguely, alludes to the desperate state of the Ukrainian armed forces.

I remain unconvinced more conscription to take on ever more reluctant “volunteers” is the answer.

jfman · 02-07-2024, 23:22

Some Europe wide polling on the Ukraine question published in the Guardian

Negotiated outcome most likely result of Russia-Ukraine war, major poll says

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ar...raine-war-poll

pip08456 · 03-07-2024, 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

I’m sure it looks just like a meat grinder whether you are a Russian advancing or a Ukrainian retreating. The article linked, albeit vaguely, alludes to the desperate state of the Ukrainian armed forces.

I remain unconvinced more conscription to take on ever more reluctant “volunteers” is the answer.

Quote:

The Russian Ministry of Defense has apparently changed its rules when it comes to the fate of its soldiers injured from the ongoing war in Ukraine.

According to a report by Russian independent media outlet iStories, severely injured or disabled Russian troops are now being sent back to the frontline to fight again.

Medical examiners are reportedly told to still consider injured soldiers with frontline experience for redeployment, regardless of the severity of their wounds.

As a result, the Russian military now has units of “hundreds of disabled soldiers” to be sent back to the war-torn nation despite most of them not having been properly cared for.

source https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/...ers-frontline/

jfman · 03-07-2024, 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by pip08456

source https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/...ers-frontline/

What's your point, caller?

If Ukraine can't make inroads against disabled Russians - the article being over six months old - I'd not be sacrificing any more of Ukraine's best and brightest on it. The political consensus is fragmenting in Europe and there's nobody in charge in the US. Biden, if they don't invoke the 25th amendment to remove him, isn't going to squeeze more out of Congress while the Republican presumptive nominee opposes it.

**Chris** · 03-07-2024, 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

What's your point, caller?

If Ukraine can't make inroads against disabled Russians - the article being over six months old - I'd not be sacrificing any more of Ukraine's best and brightest on it. The political consensus is fragmenting in Europe and there's nobody in charge in the US. Biden, if they don't invoke the 25th amendment to remove him, isn't going to squeeze more out of Congress while the Republican presumptive nominee opposes it.

Can you provide some links to clarify what you mean by ‘the political consensus is fragmenting in Europe’?

jfman · 03-07-2024, 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

Can you provide some links to clarify what you mean by ‘the political consensus is fragmenting in Europe’?

The Guardian article linked above outlines differing positions across a number of nations both in terms of what is realistically achievable and what they think should happen next.

**Hugh** · 03-07-2024, 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

Can you provide some links to clarify what you mean by ‘the political consensus is fragmenting in Europe’?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

The Guardian article linked above outlines differing positions across a number of nations both in terms of what is realistically achievable and what they think should happen next.

From the Grauniad article…

Quote:

Inside 14 European countries surveyed, only in Estonia was there a prevailing view (38%) that Ukraine would win the war outright. Nevertheless, majorities in Sweden and Poland wanted Europe to help Ukraine fight until all its territory is regained. Majorities in Italy, Greece and Bulgaria opposed this to the extent that they thought it was a bad idea to increase the supply of weapons to Ukraine. Overall, Italy emerged as the largest major European power least supportive of Ukraine. But in most European countries, large majorities still support sending more arms to Ukraine, even if it is to strengthen Ukraine’s negotiating hand.

A middle group of countries, including Czech Republic, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, and Switzerland, lack a national consensus on the war and the EU’s role.

"In most European countries, large majorities still support sending more arms to Ukraine " ≠ "the political consensus is fragmenting in Europe"

Pierre · 03-07-2024, 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh

From the Grauniad article…

"In most European countries, large majorities still support sending more arms to Ukraine " ≠ "the political consensus is fragmenting in Europe"

you forgot this bit

Quote:

to strengthen Ukraine’s negotiating hand.

But according to you, negotiation is appeasement.

so perhaps it should read

"most European countries support appeasement"?

**Hugh** · 03-07-2024, 13:57

I have never said "negotiation is appeasement"…

The only time I have said anything remotely resembling that was in March 2022

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...&postcount=970

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

Originally Posted by Hugh View Post

I think the crunch point will come if Putin tries to claim the Suwalki Cortidor between Belarus and Kaliningrad*

That would be on the table in any peace negotiation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh

That wouldn’t be peace negotiations, that would be appeasement.

I wonder if it will be insisted that Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia leave NATO would also be on the table at any "peace negotiations"?

We never had to use tactical nukes to slow down any Sov invasion through the Fulda Gap because we bankrupted the Soviet Union into submission - it’s no different now, unless we let his blackmail work (by giving up Ukraine first, then the Suwalki Corridor, then Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia).

He won’t stop there, because, why should he? He will have seen his tactics work.

We didn’t let the threat of "Instant Sunshine” stop us in the Cold War, what’s the difference now?

---------- Post added at 09:33 ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 ----------

Mr Ad-Hominem coming to visit again, I see…

Can’t we have a civilised discussion with differing views without personal attacks, please? (general call, not specific to you).

Meanwhile…

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ay-2024-07-03/

Quote:

BRUSSELS, July 3 (Reuters) - NATO allies have agreed to fund military aid for Ukraine with 40 billion euros ($43 billion) next year, two Western European diplomats told Reuters on Wednesday, a week before the alliance's leaders are set to meet in Washington.

NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg had asked allies to make a multi-year commitment to keep military aid for Kyiv at the same level as that since Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, adding up to about 40 billion euros a year.

jfman · 03-07-2024, 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh

From the Grauniad article…

"In most European countries, large majorities still support sending more arms to Ukraine " ≠ "the political consensus is fragmenting in Europe"

Majorities in Italy, Greece and Bulgaria opposed this to the extent that they thought it was a bad idea to increase the supply of weapons to Ukraine.

Seemed like an odd bit to leave out when you selectively chose your sentences to put in bold.

Unless they’re the “wrong type” of Europeans.

The political consensus fragments as alternate minority positions in more places rise of course, and there’s more nuance within those majority positions - as Pierre correctly notes above to strengthen the negotiating hand is significantly different from a return to either 2022 or 2014 borders.

If I meant to say “a majority of people in the majority of countries” I’d have said that - I don’t believe that so I didn’t say it.

Pierre · 03-07-2024, 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh

I have never said "negotiation is appeasement"…

The only time I have said anything remotely resembling that was in March 2022

Sorry, I suggested a negotiated settlement and you called it appeasement.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...&postcount=827

in any event, you've been consistently against a negotiated peace from the outset.