Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Some of your posts on this thread have been quite considered, Seph, but this seems distinctly at odds with them. Emotion seems to have taken precedence over analysis.

Whilst the 7 October terrorist attacks were barbarous, this did not logically mean Israel had to respond in a way that left 13,000 people dead. They responded in this way to try and save Netanyahu's power and not for the long-term benefit of the people of Israel.

Not at all, Andrew. I don't do emotion in the Forum.

The @Ian was very specific. He comes across in his posts as far less considered than you. The civilian death toll in this war is really regrettable. But Ian makes little or no allowance for the murderous attack by Hamas on 7-October. He has no realistic answer for how Israel should have reacted to the Hamas attack.

It is no good going back into history as to how Israel could have behaved in the past so as to avoid finding itself in its current position. Ian (and others) ignore the role of Iran in callously stirring this up. Ian ignores the barbarity of Hamas as being central to Israel's response.

As regards the second piece I've highlighted, what response by Israel would have been 'logical'? One could be 100% certain that Israel would provide an iron fist response to the Hamas attack and what is more, Iran and Hamas would have known that. Remember, those zealots believe in virgins in heaven.

As regards Netanyahu, who obviously wants to stay in power- the Ultras may well keep him there till the next GE just to keep their slice of power. Because of the Ultras, I can't help feeling that there is more grief to come for Israel. The Ultras' settlement programme in the West Bank pretty much guarantees that no political settlement is possible.

Shit creek, nix paddle and bigger shit to come.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

@Ian

I note that you don't mention the extreme barbarity of the Hamas attack on Israel/ Ergo, Israel had to respond and go in hard.

Seph, I have already mentioned that Hamas is a murderous death cult and needs removing a few times in this thread. How many times do you need?

However, I do not agree that the nature of how a civilian is killed demands a different, disproportionate response.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Seph, I have already mentioned that Hamas is a murderous death cult and needs removing a few times in this thread. How many times do you need?

However, I do not agree that the nature of how a civilian is killed demands a different, disproportionate response.

If Hamas 'needs removing', how do you propose that should be done?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Not at all, Andrew. I don't do emotion in the Forum.

The @Ian was very specific. He comes across in his posts as far less considered than you. The civilian death toll in this war is really regrettable. But Ian makes little or no allowance for the murderous attack by Hamas on 7-October. He has no realistic answer for how Israel should have reacted to the Hamas attack.

It is no good going back into history as to how Israel could have behaved in the past so as to avoid finding itself in its current position. Ian (and others) ignore the role of Iran in callously stirring this up. Ian ignores the barbarity of Hamas as being central to Israel's response.

As regards the second piece I've highlighted, what response by Israel would have been 'logical'? One could be 100% certain that Israel would provide an iron fist response to the Hamas attack and what is more, Iran and Hamas would have known that. Remember, those zealots believe in virgins in heaven.

As regards Netanyahu, who obviously wants to stay in power- the Ultras may well keep him there till the next GE just to keep their slice of power. Because of the Ultras, I can't help feeling that there is more grief to come for Israel. The Ultras' settlement programme in the West Bank pretty much guarantees that no political settlement is possible.

Shit creek, nix paddle and bigger shit to come.

Seph, you "regret" the civilian death toll yet you sanction it? BTW, I am ignoring nothing here: you believe it seems that the "barbarity of Hamas" validates the killing of 1000's of children and the destruction of whole swathes of urban Gaza. I do not.

I agree with you regards the Ultra Zionists. They are the real issue here. If they, and Likud, could be side-lined and a more centralist government elected in Israel, there could be a process where the 2 State solution aligned with the Pre-1967 war borders, could be resurrected. Only by sponsoring the moderate Palestinians and delivering a Palestinian state, can extremists like Hamas finally be neutralised.

As you say, the biggest obstacle to this are the hard-line minorities in Israel, religious and otherwise.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Seph, you "regret" the civilian death toll yet you sanction it? BTW, I am ignoring nothing here: you believe it seems that the "barbarity of Hamas" validates the killing of 1000's of children and the destruction of whole swathes of urban Gaza. I do not.

I agree with you regards the Ultra Zionists. They are the real issue here. If they, and Likud, could be side-lined and a more centralist government elected in Israel, there could be a process where the 2 State solution aligned with the Pre-1967 war borders, could be resurrected. Only by sponsoring the moderate Palestinians and delivering a Palestinian state, can extremists like Hamas finally be neutralised.

As you say, the biggest obstacle to this are the hard-line minorities in Israel, religious and otherwise.

Seph, you "regret" the civilian death toll yet you sanction it? BTW, I am ignoring nothing here: you believe it seems that the "barbarity of Hamas" validates the killing of 1000's of children and the destruction of whole swathes of urban Gaza. I do not.

I sanction nothing. I merely accept that Israel had to engage in war with Hamas in order to eliminate those barbarians.

The rest of paragraph is meaningless rhetoric. It goes nowhere, proposes no course of action that Israel should have taken and concurs with my regret that Palestinian civilians have died in large numbers.

Come on - propose something positive and doable on Israel's part.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I sanction nothing. I merely accept that Israel had to engage in war with Hamas in order to eliminate those barbarians.

The rest of paragraph is meaningless rhetoric. It goes nowhere, proposes no course of action that Israel should have taken and concurs with my regret that Palestinian civilians have died in large numbers.

Come on - propose something positive and doable on Israel's part.

I’m sure he’ll do that just after you propose something positive and doable about how Israel can defeat Hamas without killing thousands of women and children…

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

I’m sure he’ll do that just after you propose something positive and doable about how Israel can defeat Hamas without killing thousands of women and children…

Another piece of worthless rhetoric on your part. I';ve already explained that war is war and collects collateral damage (loss of life).

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

there could be a process where the 2 State solution

Been tried several times and both sides don’t want it.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Been tried several times and both sides don’t want it.

They both can't have one state from the river to the sea though. Two states is the only solution which will give both countries peace...regardless of the extremists in power at the moment.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

They both can't have one state from the river to the sea though. Two states is the only solution which will give both countries peace...regardless of the extremists in power at the moment.

But how is that possible? How will that be done? Let's say that the Ultras are no longer in coalition power. But their settlements are still in the West Bank. Are we going to see a blue-on-blue situation to remove them?

Then, as in many Islamic countries, will the extremists in Palestine take political power and carry on with the Terrorism? How will Israel ensure that the 2-state solution avoids these pitfalls?

Hamas and, I suggest Hizbollah must be convincingly defeated. But then there's Iran.

So it's pointless spouting this 2-state solution stuff. Israel will be fighting them for a long time because there is no 2-state solution available.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

@Ian

I note that you don't mention the extreme barbarity of the Hamas attack on Israel/ Ergo, Israel had to respond and go in hard.

Hard on the civilian population?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

They both can't have one state from the river to the sea though.

No shit,

Two states is the only solution which will give both countries peace...regardless of the extremists in power at the moment.

That’s very, very naive.

Gaza was effectively a Palestinian state.

So let’s say there was an official Palestinian state either side of Israel formed from Gaza and the West Bank, and that Palestinian state elected an extreme Islamic jihadist party to govern them.

Then, that legitimate Palestinian state declared war on Israel, and undertook a military incursion into Israel killing thousands of Jews.

How is that any different to now.

If, in that theoretical scenario, Israel retaliated against that legitimate Palestinian state and flattened it, would you, Ian and JFman still condemn Israel for defending itself?

Giving Palestinians a state, would not give Israelis peace…..from the river to the sea negates the existence of Israel. Giving Palestinians a state wouldn’t change anything.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

But how is that possible? How will that be done? Let's say that the Ultras are no longer in coalition power. But their settlements are still in the West Bank. Are we going to see a blue-on-blue situation to remove them?

If a family has settled illegally in another country then they know there's always a chance they'll be kicked out.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Then, as in many Islamic countries, will the extremists in Palestine take political power and carry on with the Terrorism? How will Israel ensure that the 2-state solution avoids these pitfalls?

Most Islamic countries are not like Iran, that's an extreme situation there. A strong well-funded Palestinian regime is needed. At the moment, Israel collects taxes in the West Bank but is not sending them to the Palestinian Authority there so it has no authority and can't defend its citizens against the settlers. That needs to end.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Hamas and, I suggest Hizbollah must be convincingly defeated. But then there's Iran.

So it's pointless spouting this 2-state solution stuff. Israel will be fighting them for a long time because there is no 2-state solution available.

It's more possible than a single-state solution and must be pursued so both countries can exist peacefully. The alternative is more unnecessary deaths in both countries.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

No shit,

That’s very, very naive.

Gaza was effectively a Palestinian state.

So let’s say there was an official Palestinian state either side of Israel formed from Gaza and the West Bank, and that Palestinian state elected an extreme Islamic jihadist party to govern them.

Then, that legitimate Palestinian state declared war on Israel, and undertook a military incursion into Israel killing thousands of Jews.

How is that any different to now.

If, in that theoretical scenario, Israel retaliated against that legitimate Palestinian state and flattened it, would you, Ian and JFman still condemn Israel for defending itself?

Giving Palestinians a state, would not give Israelis peace…..from the river to the sea negates the existence of Israel. Giving Palestinians a state wouldn’t change anything.

The difference would be that Palestinians would genuinely be complicit in bringing around a state of war (if this hypothetical Palestine declared war on Israel). As it stands it hasn’t, and there isn’t one.

Terrorists carried out an act and Palestinian civilians are paying the price of the retaliation.

There’s no evidence Palestinians would vote for such a war, although nobody could rule out Israeli interference just as they were complicit in Hamas governance of Gaza until it bit them in the arse.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

It's more possible than a single-state solution and must be pursued so both countries can exist peacefully. The alternative is more unnecessary deaths in both countries.

A single Israeli state is the only way it ends.

There isn’t a “both” countries. There is only one country in that location. That country is Israel.

Palestine has never existed as a state.