Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Maggy

There is no side to pick.Both are behaving disgustingly.

The only people I have any sympathy for are the ordinary Palestinians who have nowhere to go unless they leave the only place that has been home to their families well back into the 20th century. Thay have been kicked in the teeth time and time again,labeled as terrorists if they dare to try and defend themselves. I used to defend the plucky Israelis in setting up a new state after the horrors of WW2 and Auschwitz But in recent years the scales have fallen from my eyes.They are no longer th plucky little state I once thought but a bully involved in land grabbing.

Tut tut. By all means sympathise with the poor Palestinians/Gazans who are caught up in this mess. But surely your sympathies should also rest with the families of the brutally murdered Israelis.

Your second point that I highlighted is nothing short of outrageous. The Hamas atrocities of 7-Oct are pure terrorism. Shame on you.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Tut tut. By all means sympathise with the poor Palestinians/Gazans who are caught up in this mess. But surely your sympathies should also rest with the families of the brutally murdered Israelis.

Your second point that I highlighted is nothing short of outrageous. The Hamas atrocities of 7-Oct are pure terrorism. Shame on you.

One again wilfully misrepresenting what was actually said to frame it in Zionist terms. This is why I don't play these games and state - unequivocally - that Israel are a terrorist state acting without justification.

Other people can debate other issues.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Paul

Ukraine is just a little bit bigger (so anything is harder to accurately hit) and the Ukrainian military are not hiding in hospitals or among the population. Ukraine can also shoot down a large number of the missiles aimed at them, and have largely prevented any air strikes, so not really a valid comparison. Despite all this, Russia is still attacking civilian targets.

Russia has/ had a much bigger army, with more missiles and bombs but it's a fair point, international law does demand that if the enemy is hiding in a hospital then you shouldn't bomb it, full stop, unequivocal

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

, international law does demand that if the enemy is hiding in a hospital then you shouldn't bomb it, full stop, unequivocal

it doesn't.

“Hospitals enjoy a special protected status under international humanitarian law. So, to attack a hospital or medical facility, whether it is a civilian or military installation, is a crime,” says Kay.

However, if the hospital is used to support military operations for nonmedical purposes, then it loses its special protection status and it can be attacked by the opposition forces.

But the law requires that the attack be proportionate to the threat and risk involved.

Steven Kay.

Steven Kay KC is the Head of 9BR Chambers, a leading set of barrister’s Chambers established in London over 70 years ago. He is a leading international criminal lawyer with a global reputation who has been in the landmark cases that have established modern international criminal law including: the first UN trial at the Yugoslavia Tribunal (Dusko Tadic); the first trial of a former Head of State (ex-President of Serbia, Slobodan Milosevic); the first trial at the ICC of an incumbent Head of State (President Uhuru Kenyatta of Kenya)

https://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/05/a...ime/index.html

I think he knows what he's talking about.

[jfman]

The evidence that hospitals are being used for military purposes will be weaker than for the “40 beheaded babies” claim.

There seems to be a worrying push to deny Palestinians any safe haven at all in this thread.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

The evidence that hospitals are being used for military purposes will be weaker than for the

The evidence is very strong and has been for years.

NATO wrote a report on it a full decade ago

https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfi...an_shields.pdf

The terrorists themselves admit they do it.

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bkrxjhcf6

https://allarab.news/hamas-admits-us...human-shields/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-mistake.html

I could have posted a hundred examples.

“40 beheaded babies” claim.

I couldn't ask the babies as they didn't have any heads.

1) BTW, are you implying that didn't happen, 2) or that it wasn't 40?

Because if it's 1) then I would you hold you in the same regard as a holocaust denier and if it's 2) I would ask what would an acceptable number be?

No doubt you'll just throw, "thousands of Palestinians" at me and not answer, that's fine. I'm not an expecting an answer from you, you never do.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

The evidence that hospitals are being used for military purposes will be weaker than for the “40 beheaded babies” claim.

There seems to be a worrying push to deny Palestinians any safe haven at all in this thread.

Rubbish. Rule number 1: Don't attack another country and carry out the atrocities as Hamas has done. Rule number 2: Don't take hostages.

If Hamas release the hostages, Israel said they would cease fire.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Rubbish. Rule number 1: Don't attack another country and carry out the atrocities as Hamas has done. Rule number 2: Don't take hostages.

If Hamas release the hostages, Israel said they would cease fire.

Netanyahu has specifically said that isn’t a deal.

---------- Post added at 15:01 ---------- Previous post was at 14:56 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

The evidence is very strong and has been for years.

NATO wrote a report on it a full decade ago

https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfi...an_shields.pdf

The terrorists themselves admit they do it.

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bkrxjhcf6

https://allarab.news/hamas-admits-us...human-shields/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-mistake.html

I could have posted a hundred examples.

I couldn't ask the babies as they didn't have any heads.

1) BTW, are you implying that didn't happen, 2) or that it wasn't 40?

Because if it's 1) then I would you hold you in the same regard as a holocaust denier and if it's 2) I would ask what would an acceptable number be?

No doubt you'll just throw, "thousands of Palestinians" at me and not answer, that's fine. I'm not an expecting an answer from you, you never do.

Did you ask the babies if their heads blew off in an attack by Apache helicopters on homes and cars?

I personally don’t think there’s an acceptable number of dead civilians. However, if someone told me there were 40 beheaded babies and it turned out to be 2 then told me a number of hospitals were being used by Hamas I’d be inclined to be sceptical that it was another piece of propaganda.

Have Israel published a list of victims by age?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Did you ask the babies if their heads blew off in an attack by Apache helicopters on homes and cars?

It's a great thing to hide behind. When every point put to you is easily swatted away with......but thousands of dead palestinians....

were 40 beheaded babies and it turned out to be 2

is that what happened?

I wonder how many of the....14,000, actually will turn out to be. If they're counting them by the same metric as the 500 killed in the hospital, sorry car park, attack...then who knows.

then told me a number of hospitals were being used by Hamas I’d be inclined to be sceptical that it was another piece of propaganda.

What is the quote, "the first casualty of war is the truth". I'll be ready to admit I'm sure Israel will be manipulating some of the information that is released, but doubt it's anywhere of the scale of Hamas.

Who seem to have their own propoganda acting division.


https://www.opindia.com/2023/11/mr-f...ody-sometimes/

Have Israel published a list of victims by age?

I don't know but I think they have identified all the victims, which took them a long time accurately count and name, they should follow Hamas' technique as they can accurately count them in minutes of an attack happening.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

It's a great thing to hide behind. When every point put to you is easily swatted away with......but thousands of dead palestinians....

is that what happened?

Nobody knows, 2 is equally as speculative as 40 based on facts in the public domain.

I wonder how many of the....14,000, actually will turn out to be. If they're counting them by the same metric as the 500 killed in the hospital, sorry car park, attack...then who knows.

What is the quote, "the first casualty of war is the truth". I'll be ready to admit I'm sure Israel will be manipulating some of the information that is released, but doubt it's anywhere of the scale of Hamas.

Who seem to have their own propoganda acting division.

https://www.opindia.com/2023/11/mr-f...ody-sometimes/

I don't know but I think they have identified all the victims, which took them a long time accurately count and name, they should follow Hamas' technique as they can accurately count them in minutes of an attack happening.

It’s hard to identify bodies blown up by Apache helicopters that can’t distinguish between civilians and terrorists so fire indiscriminately, we can agree on that point. Even worse where limbs have been blown off, or heads.

Some of the videos of destroyed buildings, burned out cars and crowds being fired upon is truly horrific. Israelis might have got a glimpse of what the Palestinians are now living under in their final seconds.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Pierre

it doesn't.



Steven Kay.



https://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/05/a...ime/index.html

I think he knows what he's talking about.

Silly me, I was quoting The Geneva Convention which as I'm sure you and your learned friend know is the basis for international law, what a lovely get out, explains why Russia got away with bombing the hospitals in Syria with barely a murmur of condemnation and frankly I don't buy it any more that I bought that plank from hamas saying those Israelis on october 7th were legitimate targets because they were military reservists

[pip08456]

Surprised no one has mentioned this before.

Tens of thousands of Gazans are moving to the southern part of the Gaza Strip for their safety.
For the 6th consecutive day, the @IDF
has opened an evacuation corridor.
The evacuation corridor is open today 9:00-16:00.

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1722922249617903907

[jfman]

Israel has revised downwards it’s estimate of those killed on October 7 to “around 1200” having initially included some terrorists.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

Israel has revised downwards it’s estimate of those killed on October 7 to “around 1200” having initially included some terrorists.

]Israel has revised downwards it’s estimate of those brutally murdered on October 7 to “around 1200” having initially included some terrorists.[/QUOTE]

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

]Israel has revised downwards its estimate of those brutally murdered on October 7 to “around 1200” having initially included some terrorists.

Now, now.

If 200 terrorists were charred beyond recognition you can’t discount the probability that some of the civilians or captured Israeli military in the same cars or homes as terrorists might have been “collateral damaged” by Israel.