Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The only way this continual violence will end is by taking out the terrorists. For some unfathomable reason, you seem to want Israel to treat them with kid gloves. Why?

I understand the sympathy being expressed for the Palestinian people, but Hamas must be removed for their sake as well as for Israel’s. We’ve tried everything else. They are not interested in any kind of settlement, they just want to obliterate Israel. Are you content to stand back and let that happen, or alternatively have this warmongering carrying on for the next 100+ years?

If you have some magic solution as an alternative to crushing Hamas, I’m sure we’d all like to hear it.

International law is clear on the right of people in occupied territories to take up arms against their occupier. Be careful what you wish for.

When you say "we've" tried everything you've just sat in your armchair on an Internet forum saying Palestinian civilians can "suck on that". You know nothing of the pain or suffering of either side, so spare us.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Not correct. This has been happening in the West Bank for years but this clearly does not fit your narrative.

I'll make it easy for you to understand: both sides are to blame when you look at this situation on a holistic & historical level.

No, you are wrong. You cannot compartmentalise this in that way. The violence has been going on for many years and it is practically a way of life for these people. A violent assault encourages a violent defence.

If you and your family were being threatened with this kind of violence and intimidation, you wouldn’t just sit there and take it. Well, nor will the Israelites, and why should they?

The Palestinians have a legitimate grievance about a past generation being removed from the place they once lived, but this is not the way to go about resolving that dispute. Get rid of the fanaticism and lack of trust, and the two sides could live in peace together and even find a way of sharing the land currently occupied by Israel. That is a long way off, of course, but it should be an objective.

But nothing will change while Hamas exists.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

A violent assault encourages a violent defence.

If you and your family were being threatened with this kind of violence and intimidation, you wouldn’t just sit there and take it.

Sounds like something a terrorist sympathiser would say.

---------- Post added at 11:14 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The Palestinians have a legitimate grievance about a past generation being removed from the place they once lived

I dunno, OB. I think thousands of Israeli missiles (6000 at last count, but that's a few days ago) falling onto a land of 141 square miles where 2.2 million people live might be a legitimate grievance.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The only way this continual violence will end is by taking out the terrorists. For some unfathomable reason, you seem to want Israel to treat them with kid gloves. Why?

I understand the sympathy being expressed for the Palestinian people, but Hamas must be removed for their sake as well as for Israel’s. We’ve tried everything else. They are not interested in any kind of settlement, they just want to obliterate Israel. Are you content to stand back and let that happen, or alternatively have this warmongering carrying on for the next 100+ years?

If you have some magic solution as an alternative to crushing Hamas, I’m sure we’d all like to hear it.

That's the nub of the matter.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

International law is clear on the right of people in occupied territories to take up arms against their occupier. Be careful what you wish for.

When you say "we've" tried everything you've just sat in your armchair on an Internet forum saying Palestinian civilians can "suck on that". You know nothing of the pain or suffering of either side, so spare us.

What pathetic responses you do make, jfman. It’s time you pursued a course in comprehension so that you can start to understand the meaning of posts rather than this pointless incorrect interpretation of individual words and phrases and even whole posts. Your armchair must be very comfortable indeed judging by the number of posts and arguments you stir up on here.

The issue about international law is not well understood by those accusing Israel of breaking it. Civilians may be hurt or killed in any war, but that only constitutes a war crime if that is a deliberate or reckless act. If civilians happen to be killed while Israel takes measures to defend itself because they ‘get in the way’ (collateral damage) that is indeed unfortunate but it is not a war crime.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

What pathetic responses you do make, jfman. It’s time you pursued a course in comprehension so that you can start to understand the meaning of posts rather than this pointless incorrect interpretation of individual words and phrases and even whole posts. Your armchair must be very comfortable indeed judging by the number of posts and arguments you stir up on here.

The issue about international law is not well understood by those accusing Israel of breaking it. Civilians may be hurt or killed in any war, but that only constitutes a war crime if that is a deliberate or reckless act. If civilians happen to be killed while Israel takes measures to defend itself because they ‘get in the way’ (collateral damage) that is indeed unfortunate but it is not a war crime.

I'm sure the Palestinians will take some solace in the fact you judged them to be killed for getting in the way, rather than massacred at the hands of a terrorist state. I'm hesitant to ask where you think they should go as bombs rain down on almost every square mile of a tiny land? Churches? Schools? Hospitals?

Your arguments are far more compelling than whatever Iranians will be whispering in the ears of the next generation of militants I'm sure.

Your callous disregard for Palestinian life oozes though almost every post, how else do you expect me to interpret Palestinian families - specifically families not terrorists - can suck on that?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Prove it

Please don't bog down Old Boy with more requests for evidence to back up his proclamations! The poor lad is still scrabbling around to dig up something to support his assertion that "They have cut off utilities to force Hamas to surface from their tunnels, and apparently this has been pretty successful so far."

---------- Post added at 11:44 ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

That's the nub of the matter.

Old Boy's punish-all-Palestinians-in-Gaza approach just acts as a recruiting sergeant for Hamas.

[jfman]

If OB was debating sincerely held beliefs we wouldn't have had the quality analysis of the 2006 Palestinian election. His belief, now as then, wasn't that civilians were accidental victims in all that it was - and remains - that they absolutely deserve it because of who they are and where they live. However he can't say that so we have the distractions, the obfuscation and outright shithousery that is him wading from weak argument to weak argument.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

I'm sure the Palestinians will take some solace in the fact you judged them to be killed for getting in the way, rather than massacred at the hands of a terrorist state. I'm hesitant to ask where you think they should go as bombs rain down on almost every square mile of a tiny land? Churches? Schools? Hospitals?

Your arguments are far more compelling than whatever Iranians will be whispering in the ears of the next generation of militants I'm sure.

Your callous disregard for Palestinian life oozes though almost every post, how else do you expect me to interpret Palestinian families - specifically families not terrorists - can suck on that?

You may not like it, but that’s basically what the law says. You still haven’t given us your solution.

---------- Post added at 12:17 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Old Boy's punish-all-Palestinians-in-Gaza approach just acts as a recruiting sergeant for Hamas.

You also offer no alternative solutions, Andrew. Israel has it, and it’s the only solution in town.

[jfman]

It absolutely isn’t what the law says, however it also entitles Hamas to engage in military combat with Israel as an occupying force but I don’t hear you parroting that one often. Nor the Palestinian’s moral authority to carry out reprisals in the face of violence and intimidation.

You still haven’t told us how many Palestinian civilian deaths would be too many as Israel carry out their “careful” carpet bombing of Gaza? Where should civilians seek refuge to “get out the way”?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

It absolutely isn’t what the law says, it also entitles Hamas to engage in military combat with Israel as an occupying force but I don’t hear you parroting that one often.

You still haven’t told us how many Palestinian civilian deaths would be too many as Israel carry out their “careful” carpet bombing of Gaza?

And you still haven’t offered up any alternative solutions. Your time would be better spent in devising one rather than slagging off others who can see the reality of the situation.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

And you still haven’t offered up any alternative solutions. Your time would be better spent in devising one rather than slagging off others who can see the reality of the situation.

OB the distance between your input into this thread and reality could be measured in light years.

I refer to my first post of the day - where I pointed out that late on a Friday night you took it upon yourself to question what side other forum members were on and accusing another linking an independent source of using Hamas narratives. Neither stood up to scrutiny. The only other constant alongside your blatant disregard for Palestinian life.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You also offer no alternative solutions, Andrew. Israel has it, and it’s the only solution in town.

I've been consistently saying that Israel has a right to defend itself but not to collectively punish Palestinians living in Gaza.

You've still failed to show how cutting off utilities is the quick and effective weapon for flushing out Hamas. And, instead of sensibly trying to prove your point or retract it, you've sidestepped the issue and chosen instead to accuse other forum members like Hugh of favouring a Hamas narrative.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

OB the distance between your input into this thread and reality could be measured in light years.

I refer to my first post of the day - where I pointed out that late on a Friday night you took it upon yourself to question what side other forum members were on and accusing another linking an independent source of using Hamas narratives. Neither stood up to scrutiny. The only other constant alongside your blatant disregard for Palestinian life.

What I will agree with you is that the gap in perspective between you and me can be measured in light years.

You may think you are right about everything, but if you’re saying my view of things is not credible, I would point out, again, that both the PM and the Leader of the Opposition are of the view that Israel need to take out Hamas, but with as few civilian casualties as possible. My view is exactly the same.

Your stance, if carried out, would solve nothing and prolong this war.

---------- Post added at 13:14 ---------- Previous post was at 13:06 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I've been consistently saying that Israel has a right to defend itself but not to collectively punish Palestinians living in Gaza.

You've still failed to show how cutting off utilities is the quick and effective weapon for flushing out Hamas. And, instead of sensibly trying to prove your point or retract it, you've sidestepped the issue and chosen instead to accuse other forum members like Hugh of favouring a Hamas narrative.

I am not side stepping anything. I’ve told you what I think. I am happy for you to disagree as long as you don’t get involved in government….

Israel is not collectively punishing civilians. It is attempting to flush out Hamas. The civilians are an unfortunate casualty of that, but causing them grief is not the objective. This is on Hamas, who deliberately hide amongst the population and are actively blocking them from leaving Gaza City to go to the south of the country.

I see that the border has been opened now to let some trucks through, which is good news for them.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

And you still haven’t offered up any alternative solutions. Your time would be better spent in devising one rather than slagging off others who can see the reality of the situation.

You can't though, what's happening isn't a solution, it's a recipe to continue the saga further