HS2 and the future of British railways

[1andrew1]

One of HS2's underlying problem was its name. It was and is all about capacity building but was marketed as speed.

That left it vulnerable to the obvious evaluation of the billions spent v the time savings.

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Originally Posted by heero_yuy

The problem is though that Europe embraced the TGV's 360kph standards that we also used for HS1. We have gold plated this for HS2 and gone for 400kph. That has doubled costs already with no upper limit in sight just to shave a few extra minutes off the trip.

HS2 is 360 km/h (225 mph) not 400 km/h (250 mph).

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

HS2 is 360 km/h (225 mph) not 400 km/h (250 mph).

HS2, which the government greenlit in 2012, was initially designed to run services at up to 400 km/h (248 mph). This was reduced to an average of 330 km/h (205 mph) and maximum of 360 km/h once contracts to build new trains were awarded.

Source

[tweetiepooh]

The problem with HS2 is that people at each end want it but people in the middle don't. And with a small island like ours there are lot of in between places that don't really benefit and are adversely affected.


With big countries it's easier to go around those middle places but not so here. Or those middle places are far enough apart to warrant being included in the route.

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh

The problem with HS2 is that people at each end want it but people in the middle don't. And with a small island like ours there are lot of in between places that don't really benefit and are adversely affected.


With big countries it's easier to go around those middle places but not so here. Or those middle places are far enough apart to warrant being included in the route.

The problem with the people in the middle is they’ve never accepted that it’s the big cities that move the economy whose output they benefit from. ‘I don’t benefit from this railway line because I can’t travel on it’ is typical of the narrow minded nature of public discourse in this country.

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Sunak has just delivered the relevant section of his speech. He now says the ‘Network North’ supposedly to be built instead will enable travellers “to get from Manchester to the new station in Bradford in 30 minutes. Sheffield in 42 minute, and to Hull in 84 minutes on a fully, electrified line." Which would be grand, if it ever got built. But as of right now, how do we know that in 3 years he won’t claim the “facts have changed” and what he’s proposing now won’t get scaled back, delayed or cut again? These are just pretty words from a Tory Prime Minister to a Tory conference hall full of people who know they’ll have to move heaven and earth not to lose the forthcoming election, but don’t really know how.

[ianch99]

What rarely gets discussed is what other projects £100B could be spent on that would have far more "bang for buck" e.g. FTTH for each house in the country, like Macron is doing in Frame by 2025. There are many other examples of course.

Originally Posted by ianch99

What rarely gets discussed is what other projects £100B could be spent on that would have far more "bang for buck" e.g. FTTH for each house in the country, like Macron is doing in Frame by 2025. There are many other examples of course.

The thing is, Frame already has a lot of high speed rail, and has done for decades.

I have to admit I’m surprised how fizzing mad I am about all this. Over many years, I’ve gone from supporting the Conservative Party, to giving them the benefit of the doubt, to refusing to support Labour under Corbyn. But I’m now right out of reasons to go on giving my vote to this self-interested shower of charlatans.

All the Tory Party will have achieved by the time the line opens is to have extended the north London commuter belt to Milton Keynes. Given how much of it they buried underground to keep their shire voters happy, they might as well hand it over to TfL and let people ride it with their Oyster cards.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

The thing is, Frame already has a lot of high speed rail, and has done for decades.

Yes but you assuming that case for HS2 at the price point it has, is compelling whereas I do not. I do not believe many business folk travel by train enough to make a difference when more & more business is done online.

The only grey area is the impact on freight but I am sceptical believe it will even scratch the surface in recouping the outlay.

France by the way is also doing the Grand Paris Express, an outer loop rail for Paris to connect the suburbs and reduce the need to travel through the city to get to the other side.

Not saying we need something like that for London but it's a sign that some countries just do things rather than spend decades debating it, and start building it before canceling it and framing it as a 'brave decision'.

I am not even especially bothered about HS2. It's not something I would use much. I was just happy we were actually building something for once.

I.E They've been talking of a new crossing in Dartford for about 10 years now. Maybe more. The Dartford Crossing always has long delays now because it simply cannot cope and the idea was to alleviate the fright traffic from Dover/Folkstone by creating a new crossing they would use without having to hit the M25 until they were north of the river. It's always 'out for consultation'.

We measure infrastructure projects in human lifetimes at this rate. Our ancestors used to do that for cathedrals they were building by hand, we do that to build a poxy bridge.

That's also why all this talk of alternative projects is just talk. He will get applauded from the true believers but those people will never, ever, see those projects because the same thing will happen again. They will consult, which will take years, then there will be legal challenges because somebody's allotment is in the way or the hypothetical noise from construction bothers some NIMBYs in a village two miles away from the construction site, 10-20 years later construction might start at 5x the proposed budget before some twerp who is currently a 17-year-old aspiring SPAD has become PM and cancels the whole thing.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by ianch99

What rarely gets discussed is what other projects £100B could be spent on that would have far more "bang for buck" e.g. FTTH for each house in the country, like Macron is doing in Frame by 2025. There are many other examples of course.

We will water down broadband ambitions too. Satellite broadband will give the rural plebs "just enough" to participate in the digital economy.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

The thing is, Frame already has a lot of high speed rail, and has done for decades.

I have to admit I’m surprised how fizzing mad I am about all this. Over many years, I’ve gone from supporting the Conservative Party, to giving them the benefit of the doubt, to refusing to support Labour under Corbyn. But I’m now right out of reasons to go on giving my vote to this self-interested shower of charlatans.

All the Tory Party will have achieved by the time the line opens is to have extended the north London commuter belt to Milton Keynes. Given how much of it they buried underground to keep their shire voters happy, they might as well hand it over to TfL and let people ride it with their Oyster cards.

Just noticed .. "Frame" Nice ..

They're going to reduce the lines into Euston: https://twitter.com/diamondgeezer/st...DHyeS1v-Ce0Szw

This effectively salts the earth to ensure Labour can't u-turn this decision and continue. The land needed for the additional lines to support further expansion will be sold and built upon.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Damien

They're going to reduce the lines into Euston: https://twitter.com/diamondgeezer/st...DHyeS1v-Ce0Szw

This effectively salts the earth to ensure Labour can't u-turn this decision and continue. The land needed for the additional lines to support further expansion will be sold and built upon.

Knowing the Tories they'll sell it to Stanley Johnson, Matt Hancock's pub landlord and a venture capitalist company based in the EU advised by JRM. Force the next Government to quickly buy it back for a quick profit.

Easy money for some crony or another.

Originally Posted by Damien

They're going to reduce the lines into Euston: https://twitter.com/diamondgeezer/st...DHyeS1v-Ce0Szw

This effectively salts the earth to ensure Labour can't u-turn this decision and continue. The land needed for the additional lines to support further expansion will be sold and built upon.

Well, Rishi did say there would be "long-term planning"…

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Well, Rishi did say there would be "long-term planning"…

You mean short term political expendiency.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Well, Rishi did say there would be "long-term planning"…

I'd do some short term planning if I were him, like where in the States he'll be moving to next year. Will he be able to take the swimming pool?