Britain outside the EU

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Except for the small, but extremely relevant fact, it was mostly the same people…

The people who promised the sunlit uphill lands couldn’t deliver what they promised - that’s what happens when you have an ill-defined, non-costed deliverable - everyone loses.

You mean the "person" who put forward the Sunlit uplands ......

That has nothing to do with the fact that we're no tangibly worse off due than we would have been had there been no Brexit.

I'll put it to you Remainers again:

What beneficial state would subsist in the UK had we remained in the EU?

No, all the politicians who supported Brexit, then went into Government and didn’t deliver on their promises

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I'm definitely better off. Through my own efforts. Brexit, Schmexit - it would have been the same for me.

Everyone - work hard and don't go on strike, which is counterproductive and gives the likes of Ian the meat and drink on which Remainers thrive.

Seph, the new membership of the cult of woke has changed you. You used to be open to rational argument and be able to be persuaded when presented with objective evidence. The new Seph is more likely to just respond with childlike retorts and not debate the points in hand.

This approach is actually quite representative of the nation as a whole in recent times.

---------- Post added at 13:15 ---------- Previous post was at 13:13 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You mean the "person" who put forward the Sunlit uplands ......

That has nothing to do with the fact that we're no tangibly worse off due than we would have been had there been no Brexit.

I'll put it to you Remainers again:

[Sephiroth]

I am totally rational at all times. I also like to place focus when people like Den can only attack my description of certain Remainers rather than address the actual challenge put forward.

That rather oversize, Hughesque image contains some truths in the sense of describing what’s gone downhill since Brexit. I just challenge what negative effect on that list has been caused by Brexit.

CRASHED CURRENCY - is that where we sit now? It certainly has had crashed moments, especially after the Brexit vote, but right now I’m seeing levels similar to 2016.

PRICE RIUSES - is that entirely due to Brexit? Costs of doing business with the EU have risen, and the costs have been passed on to consumers. What’s should be happening, under a decent investment friendly government, is to work sufficiently hard to increase our wealth. The price rise component due to Brexit has not been unaffordable.

NORMALISATION OF LYING - the expressed hopes of the Leave Campaign should not be relegated to LYING. Only Remainers do that. I’m disappointed at the slow pace of growth - mainly due to government incompetence.

WORSENING TRADE GAP - Yes, that’s true and it is not beneficial to us. That’s the price of regaining sovereignty from a nasty regime in Brussels that only wants to punish us. Why would we want to be a member of such a regimen? As a member, we could not undo this.

THE UNDERMINING OF PARLIAMENT - What’s that got to do with Brexit? If EU federates, then Parliament would be undermined. If you are referring to that clown Boris and that fool Truss, then that’s got nothing to do with Brexit. Self-inflicted (by the Tories) wounds, they were.

THE SPLINTERING OF FAMILIES - I never like to see this (in the EU context) and I didn’t know this was a big issue.

LOSS OF HIGH INCOME JOBS - Loss? Or non-growth of high income jobs? The latter is due to government incompetence,, not Brexit.

THREAT TO PEACE IN IRELAND - what threat? That was a confection created by Varadkar just to make life difficult for the UK. The stupid government swallowed that hook, line and sinker and we now have the ridiculous situation of a North Sea Border. That’s one side to it; the other side is that with wise investment, NI can have the best of both worlds and if I was the NI SOS, I’d be working on that with fervour.

THE SHORTAGE OF FARM WORKERS - yes, that’s true; but is that a big reason to have remained in the EU? This problem needs a structural solution that still needs a lot of design.

FURTHER ALIENATION OF SCOTLAND - We either have a UK or we don’t. 52/48 represents the democratically expressed view of the UK on a Brexit ticket. Personally, I would have preferred a stronger mandate but there was no constitutional mechanism for the government of the day to have set any margin whereby governing taking forward the Referendum result. The ALIENATION is purely a manipulation mechanism cionfected by the SNP in their stupid pursuit of power.

WEAKENING OF OUR SCIENCE BASE - I want to see the government taking a sensible road in rejoins the European science institutions.

THE LOSS OF HEALTH COVER IN 27 COUNTRIES - really? What’s the GHIC about? And we can negotiate reciprocity.

HIGHER PHONE CHARGES WHEN TRAVELLING - not for O2 users.

LOSS OF GDPR PROTECTION. - What loss? GDPR still applies (and it’s far too onerous in some respects).

UNCERTAINTY IN GIBRALTAR - there is no uncertainty. Spain is trying it on again and those bustard in Brussels are lending Spain a hand. Why would we want to be in such a corrupt union?

LOSS OF INFLUENCE IN THE WORLD - nothing to do with Brexit. The EC wants greater control over foreign policy (VdL’s first speech) which would reduce our influence. What’s happening now regarding our influence is nothing to do with Brexit and a lot to do with world events on which the EU also has no influence.

SOARING DEBT - nothing to do with Brexit. All to do with world circumstances made doubly worse by government incompetence.

We are where we are due to incompetent government which has imperilled the NHS and it’s nothing to do with BREXIT beyond what I’ve iterated above.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

No, all the politicians who supported Brexit, then went into Government and didn’t deliver on their promises

If the purpose of Brexit was to leave the EU, which I believe it was, then that objective has been delivered and therefore delivering on the referendum was a success.

There were no other promises on the ballot paper.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I am totally rational at all times. I also like to place focus when people like Den can only attack my description of certain Remainers rather than address the actual challenge put forward.

That rather oversize, Hughesque image contains some truths in the sense of describing what’s gone downhill since Brexit. I just challenge what negative effect on that list has been caused by Brexit.

CRASHED CURRENCY - is that where we sit now? It certainly has had crashed moments, especially after the Brexit vote, but right now I’m seeing levels similar to 2016.

PRICE RIUSES - is that entirely due to Brexit? Costs of doing business with the EU have risen, and the costs have been passed on to consumers. What’s should be happening, under a decent investment friendly government, is to work sufficiently hard to increase our wealth. The price rise component due to Brexit has not been unaffordable.

NORMALISATION OF LYING - the expressed hopes of the Leave Campaign should not be relegated to LYING. Only Remainers do that. I’m disappointed at the slow pace of growth - mainly due to government incompetence.

WORSENING TRADE GAP - Yes, that’s true and it is not beneficial to us. That’s the price of regaining sovereignty from a nasty regime in Brussels that only wants to punish us. Why would we want to be a member of such a regimen? As a member, we could not undo this.

THE UNDERMINING OF PARLIAMENT - What’s that got to do with Brexit? If EU federates, then Parliament would be undermined. If you are referring to that clown Boris and that fool Truss, then that’s got nothing to do with Brexit. Self-inflicted (by the Tories) wounds, they were.

THE SPLINTERING OF FAMILIES - I never like to see this (in the EU context) and I didn’t know this was a big issue.

LOSS OF HIGH INCOME JOBS - Loss? Or non-growth of high income jobs? The latter is due to government incompetence,, not Brexit.

THREAT TO PEACE IN IRELAND - what threat? That was a confection created by Varadkar just to make life difficult for the UK. The stupid government swallowed that hook, line and sinker and we now have the ridiculous situation of a North Sea Border. That’s one side to it; the other side is that with wise investment, NI can have the best of both worlds and if I was the NI SOS, I’d be working on that with fervour.

THE SHORTAGE OF FARM WORKERS - yes, that’s true; but is that a big reason to have remained in the EU? This problem needs a structural solution that still needs a lot of design.

FURTHER ALIENATION OF SCOTLAND - We either have a UK or we don’t. 52/48 represents the democratically expressed view of the UK on a Brexit ticket. Personally, I would have preferred a stronger mandate but there was no constitutional mechanism for the government of the day to have set any margin whereby governing taking forward the Referendum result. The ALIENATION is purely a manipulation mechanism cionfected by the SNP in their stupid pursuit of power.

WEAKENING OF OUR SCIENCE BASE - I want to see the government taking a sensible road in rejoins the European science institutions.

THE LOSS OF HEALTH COVER IN 27 COUNTRIES - really? What’s the GHIC about? And we can negotiate reciprocity.

HIGHER PHONE CHARGES WHEN TRAVELLING - not for O2 users.

LOSS OF GDPR PROTECTION. - What loss? GDPR still applies (and it’s far too onerous in some respects).

UNCERTAINTY IN GIBRALTAR - there is no uncertainty. Spain is trying it on again and those bustard in Brussels are lending Spain a hand. Why would we want to be in such a corrupt union?

LOSS OF INFLUENCE IN THE WORLD - nothing to do with Brexit. The EC wants greater control over foreign policy (VdL’s first speech) which would reduce our influence. What’s happening now regarding our influence is nothing to do with Brexit and a lot to do with world events on which the EU also has no influence.

SOARING DEBT - nothing to do with Brexit. All to do with world circumstances made doubly worse by government incompetence.

We are where we are due to incompetent government which has imperilled the NHS and it’s nothing to do with BREXIT beyond what I’ve iterated above.

Seph, just to let you know that I am not ignoring your reply. I do plan on circling back to this when I get the time.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Pierre

If the purpose of Brexit was to leave the EU, which I believe it was, then that objective has been delivered and therefore delivering on the referendum was a success.

There were no other promises on the ballot paper.

That is correct. It’s implementing the benefits of Brexit that has not yet materialised. We’re still encumbered by EU legislation and nothing will start to change until that is done.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

We’re still encumbered by EU legislation and nothing will start to change until that is done.

Which specific EU legislation are we still encumbered by?

Originally Posted by Pierre

If the purpose of Brexit was to leave the EU, which I believe it was, then that objective has been delivered and therefore delivering on the referendum was a success.

There were no other promises on the ballot paper.

If the purpose of the next General Election is to choose a Political Party to govern the country, which I believe it is, then when a Party gets a Majority that objective has been delivered, and therefore delivering on the Election was a success.

By that logic, whoever has a majority won’t be held to task for anything, as there are no other promises on the ballot paper at Election time?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

If the purpose of the next General Election is to choose a Political Party to govern the country, which I believe it is, then when a Party gets a Majority that objective has been delivered, and therefore delivering on the Election was a success.

By that logic, whoever has a majority won’t be held to task for anything, as there are no other promises on the ballot paper at Election time?

There were no other promises on the ballot paper.

It wasn’t a general election, were each party puts forward a manifesto.

The question was in or out, regardless of any other consequence.

But you know that anyway, as does everyone else.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

The question was in or out, regardless of any other consequence

Here is the essential point in the whole clown show. Thank you Pierre.

In a sane world, the politicians who wished to change the macro economic & societal dna of a G7 country, would bring to the table a cogent plan, providing coherent reasoning why this was good idea for the population as a whole.

Yet, as Pierre has so eloquently pointed out, they did none of this. All they focussed on is trying to persuade sufficient floating voters to get over a very low bar. This they did by promising no downside and a lot of upside. They lied ... and here we are, with the diehards now claiming it was not the project's fault but rather the (flawed) implementation.

You see for those who always saw this as a holy, religious crusade, the facts & evidence cannot matter. It is the fundamental definition of faith.

Originally Posted by Pierre

There were no other promises on the ballot paper.

It wasn’t a general election, were each party puts forward a manifesto.

The question was in or out, regardless of any other consequence.

But you know that anyway, as does everyone else.

Manifesto, you say?

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html

There are no other promises on the ballot paper.

The General Election vote is Labour or Conservative, regardless of any consequence.

But you know that, anyway, as does everyone else…

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Manifesto, you say?

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html

There are no other promises on the ballot paper.

The General Election vote is Labour or Conservative, regardless of any consequence.

But you know that, anyway, as does everyone else…

Do we have to go over this again and again 7 whole years after it happened, and pretend we were all stupid and tricked into something?

The amount of information out there was gargantuan.

The government paid for information on what it meant to leave to posted through every door in the nation.

To say people didn’t know what they voted for is, and has always been an insult to those that did. The fact that the government has not managed the outcome as they should or could have is no reflection on the wishes of the people.

They voted out, not because of sunlit uplands, but because they wanted British issues to be dealt with by the British parliament not the Brussels/Strasberg one.

The referendum question was not vote out and get this or vote in and get that.

7 years on and we’re still whining about it, pisses me off.

Rebutting simplistic sophistry isn’t whining, it’s pointing out fallacious arguments.

Many years ago, I stated in another thread "we’re all leavers now", and I still believe that - doesn’t give people a "get out of jail" card to talk bolleaux, though…

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Do we have to go over this again and again 7 whole years after it happened, and pretend we were all stupid and tricked into something?

The amount of information out there was gargantuan.

The government paid for information on what it meant to leave to posted through every door in the nation.

To say people didn’t know what they voted for is, and has always been an insult to those that did. The fact that the government has not managed the outcome as they should or could have is no reflection on the wishes of the people.

They voted out, not because of sunlit uplands, but because they wanted British issues to be dealt with by the British parliament not the Brussels/Strasberg one.

The referendum question was not vote out and get this or vote in and get that.

7 years on and we’re still whining about it, pisses me off.

The fact that 7 years later you are still misrepresenting the truth probably pisses off more people than just me. People voted out for a whole set of reasons and many did not do any research at all before voting. Some just believed the lies they were told.

Like this splendid chap:

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/brexi...-house-2508493

A British couple in their sixties have bought a bargain €15,000 (£13,000) three-bedroom house in Italy for their retirement – but they cannot get a visa to live in it because of post-Brexit travel rules.

Greg Walter, from Winchester, says he voted for Brexit, but now feels betrayed.

“We were told Brexit was not going to impact our life abroad, that it would be just a matter of formality,” Mr Walter, who used to work in construction, told i.

“People who had second homes in Europe, or planned to buy one, were never given the correct information on the vote outcome.”

He and his partner, Steph Appleton, purchased an old dwelling in the picturesque town of Latronico in the Basilicata region of southern Italy last year and want to relocate to the quiet village, surrounded by lush vegetation, to enjoy a laidback lifestyle.