Russia has invaded Ukraine

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

If you can provide an example of a referendum in Russia that the citizens voted no to, the government took on board their concerns and presented revised proposals to I think you and Ian would be in agreement.

I don't think Pierre does the detail. It's the simplistic headlines that matter here.

[jfman]

The irony.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

The irony.

Care to explain?

Originally Posted by Chris

You’d probably recognise it if you heard it. That Youtube video is a news report with lots of talking over, so isn’t the clearest example. Try listening to this:

You're right that tune does sound familiar, but I would not have a clue its called "Carol of the Bells". That name is not familiar at all.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

If you can provide an example of a referendum in Russia that the citizens voted no to, the government took on board their concerns and presented revised proposals to I think you and Ian would be in agreement.

No, because Russia wouldn't give them a referendum.

Ireland gave their people a referendum and they decided no.

But that was unacceptable to the EU, so they were told to think again, so in response to the statement

My contention is that Irish people can make their own decisions

my point was, well, yes they can, unless they make the wrong decision.

If they had said no again do you think it would have ended there? That would have put a stop the whole European project. We didn't even get a choice to vote on it.

No, they would have gone back, again and again until they got the answer they wanted.

It's happened twice in Ireland and once in Denmark. That was the parallel I was making.

But we digress.

[Itshim]

Originally Posted by Pierre

No, because Russia wouldn't give them a referendum.

Ireland gave their people a referendum and they decided no.

But that was unacceptable to the EU, so they were told to think again, so in response to the statement my point was, well, yes they can, unless they make the wrong decision.

If they had said no again do you think it would have ended there? That would have put a stop the whole European project. We didn't even get a choice to vote on it.

No, they would have gone back, again and again until they got the answer they wanted.

It's happened twice in Ireland and once in Denmark. That was the parallel I was making.

But we digress.

As it seems to be via the SNP in Scotland , the minority government's in most countries use this tool to push there agenda . Nothing new

[Pierre]

I don’t want to diverge from the topic any further best to leave it there, before we’re told to.

[joglynne]

Russia-Ukraine War
Drone Attacks Hit Russia for 2nd Straight Day

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/12...raine-war-news

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by joglynne

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/12...raine-war-news

Couldn't get past a paywall.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Couldn't get past a paywall.

you can if you disable Java

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

you can if you disable Java

Shouldn't have to disable Java. Anyway, Java isn't running on my PC.

Maybe Joglynne could post an extract, please.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Shouldn't have to disable Java. Anyway, Java isn't running on my PC.

Maybe Joglynne could post an extract, please.

He means Javascript ...

Here's another article covering this: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia...-war-1.6675660

[joglynne]

Sorry about that Seph. I just went straight in via a Sky News link.

Thank you for giving an alternative source ianch99's. Your link does indeed cover the same story.

https://time.com/person-of-the-year-...ymyr-zelensky/

https://wapo.st/3VZm91T

Russia killed 441 civilians extrajudicially in Kyiv area early in war, U.N. finds

Russian forces killed extrajudicially at least 441 civilians outside of Kyiv, in what likely amounted to war crimes, in the first weeks of the invasion of Ukraine, the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights said in a report released Thursday. The actual number of civilians summarily killed is likely to be “considerably higher,” the report found.


Based on investigations launched after hundreds of bodies of civilians were found following the initial Russian retreat from the Kyiv area in early April, the report documents in brutal detail the violence inflicted on Ukrainians in occupied areas around the capital.


The findings add to mounting evidence that Russian forces have targeted and summarily executed Ukrainian civilians in grave violations of international law.

Witnesses told U.N. investigators that under Russian occupation, anything perceived to constitute support for Ukrainian forces, including camouflage-patterned clothing and text message histories, became grounds for death.


Some Ukrainians were killed while in makeshift detention facilities and were found with their hands tied, gunshot wounds and injuries suggesting torture, according to the report. Other civilians were shot dead in their backyards, in convoys of cars fleeing hostilities, while on bikes or walking to find food or visit relatives.


“There are strong indications that the summary executions documented in the report constitute the war crime of willful killing,” U.N. human rights commissioner Volker Türk, said in a statement Wednesday, during a visit to Ukraine.


The report investigated extrajudicial killings in 102 villages and towns between Feb. 24, the day Russia invaded, and April 6, when its forces retreated from around Kyiv after failing to take the capital. Nearly 90 percent of the civilians killed in these cases were men, in additions 72 women, 20 boys and 8 girls, according to the U.N. findings.

Not a good time to be a Russian Oligarch - might want to avoid staircases and windows…

https://www.news.com.au/finance/busi...a6c1387d4dfb4a

Another Russian oligarch found dead in mysterious circumstances

A 50-year-old Russian real estate magnate has died under mysterious circumstances after suffering fatal head injuries after a suspicious fall.

Dmitry Zelenov has joined the growing list of Russian tycoons to die under mysterious circumstances since the invasion of Ukraine began.

The 50-year-old property mogul died in early December after allegedly falling down a flight of stairs during a visit with friends in the town of Antibes in the French Riviera…

… Within hours of the news of his death breaking, attention began turning to the eerie similarities between his death and that of fellow Russian tycoon Anatoly Gerashchenko, who died in September after also falling down stairs.…

… However, they are only two out of a string of bizarre deaths among Russian elites which began after Russia invaded Ukraine in February this year.

In September, the alleged “suicide” of Pavel Pchelnikov, an executive with the Digital Logistics arm of Russian Railways who had recently shared happy snaps taken on a family holiday on social media, also made headlines.

Earlier that month, Lukoil oil company chairman Ravil Maganov died after falling from a Moscow hospital window, immediately sparking rumours he may have been assassinated after his company spoke out against the war.

In May, fellow Lukoil exec Alexander Subbotin was also found dead…

… In July, the body of Yuri Voronov – the head of a transport and logistics company linked to Russian energy juggernaut Gazprom – was found in his pool, while senior Gazprom officials Alexander Tyulakov and Leonid Shulman also died earlier this year.

In April, ex-Kremlin official Vladislav Avayev died along with his wife and teenage daughter, and just days later multi-millionaire Sergey Protosenya was also found dead along with his wife and teen daughter in eerily similar circumstances.

Meanwhile, the recent death of Putin confidante Ivan Pechorin – who fell overboard from his boat – also raised suspicions, as did the deaths of uber-wealthy Yevgeny Palant and his wife.