Russia has invaded Ukraine

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Chris

It's always heartening to hear of Russians who *do* understand they're being lied to. I guess it's unsurprising in this case as these are the ones who routinely work with people based in other countries, and they're having conversations grounded in facts, figures and business strategy, rather than occasional family chat. In the long term, the mismatch between what their government tells them the world is like, and what their work colleagues are really like, must be impossible to ignore.

Yeah, the team in Russia have a very international outlook which probably helps here. Everyone is getting regular communications from the top brass in our company on our position. For example, our CEO posted this;

Politics aside, our company’s purpose is to provide ways to protect human life, and we condemn any type of violence. The military invasion of Ukraine by the regime in Russia is in direct opposition to our values: freedom, respecting human rights and democracy. Any action to harm fellow human beings or to restrain their freedom is wrong.

Our IT department sets up our laptop lock screens remotely for whatever campaign is going on. For the last few days, it's been a big old Ukraine flag saying we are supporting humanitarian relief in Ukraine. Hopefully the Russian team have been excluded from this rollout as this could be fun if they open their laptop in public!

Originally Posted by Hom3r

Can we seriously hold back and not defend Ukraine?

Yes, we can, unless NATO is attacked, we stay out of direct conflict.

Originally Posted by Hom3r

Now he's bombed a hospital, and children are buried.


Can we seriously hold back and not defend Ukraine?



https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-w...-says-12561747

We can, and we must.

Putin has screwed himself and he knows it. There is now a risk to him personally; it may be small right now but the longer this goes on, the worse it will get for him. Even if he can disguise the military disaster, the results of the sanctions are already impossible to ignore and will only get worse.

His only salvation now is to rally his people to the flag, and the only real chance he has to do that is to frame this as Russia in grave peril from the evil West. He really needs Nato to get stuck in and escalate things so that this narrative has a ring of truth to it. From here on in, he will try to draw us into the conflict with ever more outrageous acts. He will bomb schools, he will bomb hospitals and he won’t rule out chemical weapons either.

The only way out of this is for Putin himself to be taken out of the picture, the only people who can do that are Russian, and the only way they are likely to do it is if they feel the pain of economic ruin. Sanctions will work. We must stick to them and give them time.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Paul

Yes, we can, unless NATO is attacked, we stay out of direct conflict.

We didn’t have a problem getting involved when Iraq invaded Kuwait ? Kuwait wasn’t at the time nor currently is a member of NATO (it did however sign a transit agreement in 2016) the atrocities currently being committed far outweigh the level of iraqs oppression.

Here’s the crux those advocating no direct military involvement are scared/afraid, and you know what ? That’s fine. Everyone should be in a degree of fear of the current situation.


Sooner or later we will imho be involved in a direct military confrontation with Russia. Intelligence briefings already appear to indicate that he won’t stop at Ukraine

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:22 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

We can, and we must.

Putin has screwed himself and he knows it. There is now a risk to him personally; it may be small right now but the longer this goes on, the worse it will get for him. Even if he can disguise the military disaster, the results of the sanctions are already impossible to ignore and will only get worse.

His only salvation now is to rally his people to the flag, and the only real chance he has to do that is to frame this as Russia in grave peril from the evil West. He really needs Nato to get stuck in and escalate things so that this narrative has a ring of truth to it. From here on in, he will try to draw us into the conflict with ever more outrageous acts. He will bomb schools, he will bomb hospitals and he won’t rule out chemical weapons either.

The only way out of this is for Putin himself to be taken out of the picture, the only people who can do that are Russian, and the only way they are likely to do it is if they feel the pain of economic ruin. Sanctions will work. We must stick to them and give them time.

And how many innocent lives are should we prepared to lose whilst we give these sanctions time to kick in ?

As always it’s easy to hold either this or the opposing view whilst we debate it from our ivory keyboards.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

We didn’t have a problem getting involved when Iraq invaded Kuwait ? Kuwait wasn’t at the time nor currently is a member of NATO (it did however sign a transit agreement in 2016) the atrocities currently being committed far outweigh the level of iraqs oppression.

Here’s the crux those advocating no direct military involvement are scared/afraid, and you know what ? That’s fine. Everyone should be in a degree of fear of the current situation.


Sooner or later we will imho be involved in a direct military confrontation with Russia. Intelligence briefings already appear to indicate that he won’t stop at Ukraine

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:22 ----------



And how many innocent lives are should we prepared to lose whilst we give these sanctions time to kick in ?

As always it’s easy to hold either this or the opposing view whilst we debate it from our ivory keyboards.

You've got an ivory keyboard, jealous and revolted in equal measure

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

You've got an ivory keyboard, jealous and revolted in equal measure

Plivory doesn’t have quite the same ring my dear chap

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

And how many innocent lives are should we prepared to lose whilst we give these sanctions time to kick in ?

As always it’s easy to hold either this or the opposing view whilst we debate it from our ivory keyboards.

Tricky, but hopefully we're doing more behind the scenes than we're making public. The danger is Putin realising he's made a mistake, becoming desperate, and feeling he has nothing to lose. He's doomed but it might take a few years and countless lives/misery worldwide.

If we hadn't invented nuclear weapons it would be so much more straightforward. They may have kept the peace for the last 75 years but now they are preventing us from doing so.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

We didn’t have a problem getting involved when Iraq invaded Kuwait ? Kuwait wasn’t at the time nor currently is a member of NATO (it did however sign a transit agreement in 2016) the atrocities currently being committed far outweigh the level of iraqs oppression.

Iraq didn’t have the capability to annihilate the US & Europe and most of the world. Neither did Serbia, or Vietnam, or Korea, or Argentina, or Afghanistan. Do you see the commonality between all those non-nuclear nations that we have engaged with militarily?

Here’s the crux those advocating no direct military involvement are scared/afraid, and you know what ? That’s fine. Everyone should be in a degree of fear of the current situation.

I think the end of the world is quite a healthy thing to be afraid of, and avoid.

Sooner or later we will imho be involved in a direct military confrontation with Russia. Intelligence briefings already appear to indicate that he won’t stop at Ukraine

Maybe, not at Ukraine but not another NATO member

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Iraq didn’t have the capability to annihilate the US & Europe and most of the world. Neither did Serbia, or Vietnam, or Korea, or Argentina, or Afghanistan. Do you see the commonality between all those non-nuclear nations that we have engaged with militarily?



I think the end of the world is quite a healthy thing to be afraid of, and avoid.



Maybe, not at Ukraine but not another NATO member

Great, so you admit you’re scared and NATO are scared.

But we will stop being scared enough to intervene should putin attack a NATO member? But until then he can have Switzerland, Moldova etc should he wish ?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Great, so you admit you’re scared and NATO are scared.

Well not scared as such but certainly a need to be very careful and wary of any action.

Do you suggest that NATO attack Russia now?

Are willing to risk, from your ivory keyboard nuclear Armageddon?

But we will stop being scared enough to intervene should putin attack a NATO member?

He won’t for the very reason we haven’t attacked Russia.

But until then he can have Switzerland, Moldova etc should he wish ?

He’s not interested in Switzerland, to get to Moldova he’d have to get through Ukraine, I don’t think he will and I don’t think he’s that bothered about Moldova either.

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by Pierre

He’s not interested in Switzerland, to get to Moldova he’d have to get through Ukraine, I don’t think he will and I don’t think he’s that bothered about Moldova either.

I'm sure if he's successful in Ukraine, Vlad'll have one eye on Transnistria and then it'll be the same old 'defending the Russians' excuse and we'll be waving bye-bye to Moldova.

I don't think we should engage yet but we should continue to try to exert maximum damage to Russia for the actions taken so far such as these sanctions and arming Ukraine so they can increase the military cost it takes. They need to be weakened so they can't invade elsewhere.

But we need to be more realistic at where we do draw the line for NATO to get involved. I also think Chris is right that he is trying to provoke NATO into action but in all likelihood, if Putin has decided he wants that war, he'll find a pretext to fight it.

Originally Posted by Pierre

Iraq didn’t have the capability to annihilate the US & Europe and most of the world. Neither did Serbia, or Vietnam, or Korea, or Argentina, or Afghanistan. Do you see the commonality between all those non-nuclear nations that we have engaged with militarily?



I think the end of the world is quite a healthy thing to be afraid of, and avoid.



Maybe, not at Ukraine but not another NATO member

Problem with that approach is that blackmailers* never just blackmail once - they usually come back for more once they’ve found it works…

He’s already installed a puppet regime in Belarus, he’s trying to do the same in Ukraine - don’t believe what people say, believe what they do (in this case, taking back the ex-Sov countries, one by one).

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2...es-permanently

Belarusians voted Monday to allow the country to host nuclear weapons and Russian forces permanently, results showed, part of a package of constitutional reforms that also extended the rule of leader Alexander Lukashenko.

*And that’s all this is - nuclear blackmail.

---------- Post added at 20:25 ---------- Previous post was at 20:15 ----------

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-w...fence-12561830

Ukraine war: Russia confirms it has used thermobaric weapons, says UK's Ministry of Defence

Thermobaric weapons suck in oxygen from the surrounding air to generate a high-temperature explosion, typically producing a blast wave of a significantly longer duration than that of a conventional explosive.

Thermobaric weapons suck in oxygen from the surrounding air to generate a high-temperature explosion, typically producing a blast wave of a significantly longer duration than that of a conventional explosive.

They are capable of vaporising human bodies.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Problem with that approach is that blackmailers* never just blackmail once - they usually come back for more once they’ve found it works…

*And that’s all this is - nuclear blackmail.

Are you willing to call his bluff? Do you want to play politics or poker?

He’s already installed a puppet regime in Belarus, he’s trying to do the same in Ukraine - don’t believe what people say, believe what they do (in this case, taking back the ex-Sov countries, one by one).

It’s no secret what his objectives are. He wants to rebuild a Russian empire. Not a Soviet Union. He sees himself more as a Czar.

He will try to take any non-NATO country within his sphere of influence. All NATO can do is prepare and arm these nations and continue sanctions.

NATO is defensive, as you well know having served, they will not attack unless attacked.

Whatever happens in the future, we are in a new Cold War for the foreseeable.

Probably, Only revolutionary action in Russia or any of the puppet states it acquires will change anything.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

We didn’t have a problem getting involved when Iraq invaded Kuwait ?

Iraq doesnt [and didnt] have the one of the largest armed forces in the world, and enough nuclear weapons to vaporize the planet.
You dont pick a fight with anyone that big & potentially deadly unless you absolutely need to, and atm, we absolutely dont need to.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

As always it’s easy to hold either this or the opposing view whilst we debate it from our ivory keyboards.

Mine is black plastic, and I'd very much like to stay alive and continue using it.