Russia has invaded Ukraine

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Blackshep

No western country is going to provide front line aircraft of any sort if for no other reason we don't want the Russian's getting their hands on them. Which aircraft should we send?, apart from old stock's of soviet era aircraft in former communist eastern Europe that would be completely useless we can't send anything else it isn't just training the pilot's we'd have to supply advanced munition's and experienced ground crew for the maintenance and training and honestly there isn't the time to do it.

People are be crying what is happening in Ukraine while calling for NATO to implement a no fly zone that would cause a much wider and destructive war where's the sense.

I have heard it speculated that Poland could supply them their planes and the EU replace their old outdated planes with shiney new up to date ones.

Originally Posted by Damien

I think we're talking about a point where the Russians nominally establish the first signs of whatever they view as the long-term plan for Ukraine to be (or if they somehow decide to simply leave). If we assume they install either a puppet government for the whole country or divide it up into two that'll be when it moves to the next phase, likely one of the Russians trying to brutally suppress insurgents.

The lack of any obvious solution does suggest this was a spectacular misjudgement. They probably expected this to be easy and a puppet Government to be installed and established before the West could agree on a single sanction.

They can't hold the country without troops which will cause, as you say, a modern equivalent of Soviet Afghanistan further depleting their armies, wealth and political stability at home.

I wonder what our endgame is? Do we lift sanctions anytime soon? Even if Russia withdraws I can't see us allowing them back whilst Putin is in charge because he'll do this again. Are we stuck in this position until Putin is kicked out and how long can this unity survive before some Government gets tempted by cheap oil? Especially when this huge public support dims and the domestic political costs of dealing with Russia reduce?

Was listening to this being discussed earlier, apparently it takes 2 police or security personnel per 1000 people in a settled society to maintain order and it takes 20 per 1000 in disordered/ civil war type society, that's an awful lot of troops, over 2 million of the top of my head but they seemed to think 800 000 minimum would be needed. They didn't think the Russians would be up to the task as although there is a lot of them their training is poor and their moral low, when asked what they thought would happen once Ukraine falls they said kill lists had already been prepared, people would disappear, torture would become widespread as the insurgency grew and if it got out of hand mass deportation would be employed to subdue troublesome regions.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Paul

You really have no clue do you.

Some may not agree with Hugh's angle on everything. And unlike Russia, we can have such open debates. But it's hard not to disagree with the bleedin' obvious.

[Blackshep]

Poland has already sent some mig 29's and they have updated their aircraft more then many other eastern European nations. Ukraine hasn't gone to plan at all I don't accept even Putin believes that and after Ukraine the chances of further Russian military action against other states is reduced. Russia is using a very large amount of munitions more then it thought would be needed as base's far removed and who were not involved in the invasion are having to reduce their stock's to replenish the invasion.

As in Syria we have seen that Russia has very few precision guided munition's which is a serious deficiency in term's of military action against the west which despite some rhetoric isn't on the practical table anymore.

BREAKING: Russian military is "firing from all sides" and fire has broken out at Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant, Europe's largest, Ukraine's top diplomat said.

Meltdown at Zaporizhzhia would be "10 times larger" than 1986 Chernobyl nuclear disaster, Dmytro Kuleba tweeted.

---------- Post added at 01:19 ---------- Previous post was at 00:51 ----------

UPDATE: Nuclear Plant spokesman Andriy Tuz tells Ukrainian TV that the reactor on fire is under renovation and not operating, but there is nuclear fuel inside.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Mick

BREAKING: Russian military is "firing from all sides" and fire has broken out at Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant, Europe's largest, Ukraine's top diplomat said.

Meltdown at Zaporizhzhia would be "10 times larger" than 1986 Chernobyl nuclear disaster, Dmytro Kuleba tweeted.

---------- Post added at 01:19 ---------- Previous post was at 00:51 ----------

UPDATE: Nuclear Plant spokesman Andriy Tuz tells Ukrainian TV that the reactor on fire is under renovation and not operating, but there is nuclear fuel inside.

My first thought when I saw this was they were trying to cut the power rather than blow it up and that's been confirmed on the radio, so it's better than them trying to cause a meltdown at least, still criminally reckless and grossly irresponsible though and unlike chernobyl the reactors are contained so they should not blow up like in 1986. The Russians took control of the hydro electric dam up the road earlier today to incidentally

U.S President Joe Biden, speaks with Ukraine President Zelenskyy, just now following nuclear plant fire according to senior U.S official. - AFP News Agency

BREAKING: U.S President Joe Biden urged Russia to cease its hostilities and allow Ukrainian Firefighters to extinguish nuclear plant fire.

NEW: Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant fire has not impacted “essential” equipment: Ukrainian authorities tell IAEA

Employees at Europe’s largest nuclear power plant taking “mitigatory actions.” - Jack Detsch @ Foreign Policy.

---------- Post added at 02:55 ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 ----------

Republican U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham just called for President Putin's assassination, live on FoxNews, following attack at Europe’s largest nuclear plant facility.

Ukraine President Zelenskyy spoken with Prime Minister, Boris Johnson on events at the nuclear plant:

[jonbxx]

With that attack on the power station, Russia are playing fast and loose with the Geneva Convention (Protocol I, 1977, article 56) Not that they will necessarily be too worried about that but useful to note at any trials down the line...

Dominic Raab: We’ll house Ukrainian refugees in oligarch mansions

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4...2718ba34b74b57

The government could seize oligarchs’ mansions in London and use them to house Ukrainian refugees, the deputy prime minister has said.

Dominic Raab said he supported the idea of seizing Russian property and repurposing it to house those fleeing conflict.

He also said the government would introduce legislation to stop “lawfare”, where kleptocrats use the courts to try to stop journalists reporting on how they obtained their wealth. Raab said that the government would bring forward proposals “very shortly” to stop oligarchs hiring expensive law firms to protect their fortunes.

“We have seen oligarchs and kleptocrats and those with links to Putin coming into this country and suing under our libel laws those who are shining a light, whether it is authors or NGOs, on corruption and abuse,” he told BBC Breakfast.

“That is an abuse of our system and I’m going to be putting forward proposals to deal with that and to prevent that. It cannot be right that kleptocrats and those with links to Putin can silence those shining a light on those excesses and use our courts to do so.”

[Carth]

Originally Posted by Mick

Republican U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham just called for President Putin's assassination, live on FoxNews, following attack at Europe’s largest nuclear plant facility.

Another example of tact and diplomacy from the USA.

I mean surely Putin (the enraged bear being backed into a corner) isn't going to react by taking that as an aggressive act by a foreign power is he. . is he?

Latest UK Intel:

Lithuanian PM: 'Calls for NATO no-fly zone in Ukraine are irresponsible.'

"I believe that all encouragements for NATO to get involved into the military conflict now are irresponsible," Ingrida Simonyte told a news conference in Vilnius, according to Reuters. - Kyiv Independent.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Carth

Another example of tact and diplomacy from the USA.

I mean surely Putin (the enraged bear being backed into a corner) isn't going to react by taking that as an aggressive act by a foreign power is he. . is he?

I'm not sure Putin is being backed into a corner. He's currently expanding his Empire into Ukraine.