Russia has invaded Ukraine

BREAKING: NATO says a Russian decree recognising Ukrainian separatists areas as Independent, signed by Vladimir Putin tonight says is a Russian pretext of invasion. Meanwhile, U.S President Joe Biden orders fresh sanctions banning any U.S trade in the separatist areas following the latest developments.

Also: UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson says Russia is breaking international law.

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-c...loser-12548265

Putin's rant was unhinged. At least he was honest that it's because he doesn't think Ukraine should be its own country (and worryingly also cast doubt on other Eastern European states) so the tankies can stop blaming America for it.

Foreign Secretary Liz Truss, to announce a fresh round of sanctions on Russia in response to their attack on Ukraine sovereignty.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well I was referring to how the US reacted to an opposing military power stationing itself on your doorstep. Which is what NATO is doing if they accept Ukraine and I can full appreciate Russia’s concern.

Also Ukraine’s history with Russia is not like other communist countries Russia added to the CCCP post war. Many Russians considered Ukraine part of Russia, and many Ukrainians consider themselves Russian. It’s not like a hostile invasion, if it were to happen, a decent % of the populace may welcome it.

In regards to US concessions regarding Cuba, apart from removing their nuclear weapons from Turkey, and not invading Cuba, I’m not aware of any others made by the US

The US also withdrew its nuclear weapons from Italy as part of the Cuban deal.

Ukraine is not proposing to join NATO so it's not a comparable situation.

It would be a hostile invasion. There's a million people in England who consider themselves French but that doesn't legitimise an invasion of England by France nor make it non-hostile.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Ukraine is not proposing to join NATO so it's not a comparable situation.

They haven’t ruled it out either.

It would be a hostile invasion. There's a million people in England who consider themselves French but that doesn't legitimise an invasion of England by France nor make it non-hostile.

France has never been part of the U.K. , ever, in its history ( you could argue the opposite after the Norman conquest) the same cannot be said of Ukraine which has been entwined with Russia throughout its history.

Originally Posted by Damien

Putin's rant was unhinged. At least he was honest that it's because he doesn't think Ukraine should be its own country (and worryingly also cast doubt on other Eastern European states) so the tankies can stop blaming America for it.

From DefconWarningSystem summed up succinctly:

Russia recognizes breakaway Ukraine regions, allowing Russia to invade while claiming they are not "technically" part of Ukraine anymore.

Originally Posted by Pierre

T
France has never been part of the U.K. , ever, in its history ( you could argue the opposite after the Norman conquest) the same cannot be said of Ukraine which has been entwined with Russia throughout its history.

That Ukraine used to be entwined with Russia doesn't mean anything now. They're a sovereign country.

BREAKING: The European Union follows the U.S and UK, in adding sanctions on Russia following the latest developments.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

France has never been part of the U.K. , ever, in its history ( you could argue the opposite after the Norman conquest) the same cannot be said of Ukraine which has been entwined with Russia throughout its history.

A sovereign country is a sovereign country. Many countries have been parts of other countries in the past.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

A sovereign country is a sovereign country. Many countries have been parts of other countries in the past.

I don’t doubt that. I’m not justifying it. I’m just suggesting that some Ukrainians ( perhaps some in the two provinces requesting independence from Ukraine) won’t see it as such.

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well I was referring to how the US reacted to an opposing military power stationing itself on your doorstep. Which is what NATO is doing if they accept Ukraine and I can full appreciate Russia’s concern.

Also Ukraine’s history with Russia is not like other communist countries Russia added to the CCCP post war. Many Russians considered Ukraine part of Russia, and many Ukrainians consider themselves Russian. It’s not like a hostile invasion, if it were to happen, a decent % of the populace may welcome it.

In regards to US concessions regarding Cuba, apart from removing their nuclear weapons from Turkey, and not invading Cuba, I’m not aware of any others made by the US

NATO/the USA aren’t proposing to site nuclear missiles in Ukraine, which is what the Soviets were going to do in Cuba in the 60s.

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 22:48 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

That Ukraine used to be entwined with Russia doesn't mean anything now. They're a sovereign country.

It’s an invasion - nothing more, nothing less.

The Russian troops aren’t "peacekeepers", they’re invaders.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

NATO/the USA aren’t proposing to site nuclear missiles in Ukraine, which is what the Soviets were going to do in Cuba in the 60s.

That’s irrelevant as the location of ICBMs are no longer restricted by geography. Nuclear subs also nullify that point.

The issue is having your enemy ( or perceived enemy) at your front door. Which is where the two situations align.

---------- Post added at 23:12 ---------- Previous post was at 23:05 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

It’s an invasion - nothing more, nothing less.

Depends on who is being invaded.

If you welcome your invaders with open arms are you being invaded? I don’t doubt most of Ukraine won’t want it but if the border tows are happy?

If imperialistic Wales rose up and Wrexham invaded Chester, but Chester said, but we like it, we’d rather be Welsh, what are you going to do ?

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Pierre

If you welcome your invaders with open arms are you being invaded? I don’t doubt most of Ukraine won’t want it but if the border tows are happy?

https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/sta...wdkyDS3Gw&s=19

It is in fact still an invasion even if you sent in special forces, mercenaries, and criminals a few years earlier to pave the way.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Depends on who is being invaded.

If you welcome your invaders with open arms are you being invaded? I don’t doubt most of Ukraine won’t want it but if the border tows are happy?

If imperialistic Wales rose up and Wrexham invaded Chester, but Chester said, but we like it, we’d rather be Welsh, what are you going to do ?

Also known as appeasement. That ended well, didn't it?

---------- Post added at 08:18 ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Also Ukraine’s history with Russia is not like other communist countries Russia added to the CCCP post war. Many Russians considered Ukraine part of Russia, and many Ukrainians consider themselves Russian. It’s not like a hostile invasion, if it were to happen, a decent % of the populace may welcome it

Hardly a "decent" percentage?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine

In general the population of ethnic Russians in Ukraine increased due to assimilation and in-migration between 1897 and 1939 despite the famine war and Revolution. Since 1991 it has decreased drastically in all regions, both quantitatively and proportionally. Ukraine in general lost 3 million Russians, or a little over one-quarter of all Russians living there in the 10-year period between 1991 and 2001, dropping from over 22% of the population of Ukraine to just over 17%. In the past 15 years since 2001, a further drop of Russian numbers has continued.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Mick

Foreign Secretary Liz Truss, to announce a fresh round of sanctions on Russia in response to their attack on Ukraine sovereignty.

A fat lot of good sanctions will do. They don't care. This will simply send them into the arms of China.

What Putin really won't like is if we offer the remaining Eastern European countris membership of NATO. That would really piss him off, but the problem with Putin is that he detests the West so much, there's no telling how he would react.

China and Russia acting together is of grave concern, in my view.