Britain outside the EU

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

<SNIP>



I'd imagine their solution would be to rejoin and the reason that question is always demanded is because we were told leavers knew what they were voting for and any queries raised were dismissed as project fear.

<SNIP>

I can't refute what you say - but that doesn't make Brexit wrong. Project Fear was much deeper than the logistical problems facing Nando's. Basically everything good that we knew pre-Brexit was going to collapse (OK I'm exaggerating but not by much).

Remainers should be helping to overcome issues arising from Brexit rather than gloating in "I told you so" mode. Not all Remainers but a well known group on this forum.

The HGV situation and similar will resolve itself in due course. Short term-ism by the gloating Remainers does not help.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I can't refute what you say - but that doesn't make Brexit wrong. Project Fear was much deeper than the logistical problems facing Nando's. Basically everything good that we knew pre-Brexit was going to collapse (OK I'm exaggerating but not by much).

Remainers should be helping to overcome issues arising from Brexit rather than gloating in "I told you so" mode. Not all Remainers but a well known group on this forum.

The HGV situation and similar will resolve itself in due course. Short term-ism by the gloating Remainers does not help.

I've not see anyone gloating, just people being critcised for mentioning anything negative which is happening. Brexit was ideological to some people so what would ever make it wrong?

My view is that Brexit is like a very slowly deflating tyre with the increased red tape making the UK less efficient. Others feel that the labour shortages will result in the country having to become more efficient. Both are valid opinions, time will tell.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I can't refute what you say - but that doesn't make Brexit wrong. Project Fear was much deeper than the logistical problems facing Nando's. Basically everything good that we knew pre-Brexit was going to collapse (OK I'm exaggerating but not by much).

Remainers should be helping to overcome issues arising from Brexit rather than gloating in "I told you so" mode. Not all Remainers but a well known group on this forum.

The HGV situation and similar will resolve itself in due course. Short term-ism by the gloating Remainers does not help.

They will have to help overcome the issues, gloating isn't going to pay the bills or help them thrive/ survive in their workplace. I never thought brexit wrong just that it's timing was very wrong, we should have done it 20 years ago when it would have been so much easier

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

They will have to help overcome the issues, gloating isn't going to pay the bills or help them thrive/ survive in their workplace. I never thought brexit wrong just that it's timing was very wrong, we should have done it 20 years ago when it would have been so much easier

Sadly that was never on the cards. 20 years ago Tony Blair was arguing round the cabinet table to take the UK into the Euro. Gordon Brown, in his one truly magnificent act in government, flat refused to agree to it. Furthermore, the erosion of sovereignty argument, though it had been made forcefully for a decade by that point, still seemed a bit esoteric to the mainstream. We really needed the not-a-constitution Lisbon treaty, and a few years for the reality of unchecked migration to be felt, to demonstrate just how much control we were losing over our own affairs. The Euro crisis was also helpful in that regard, as our contributions to the EU budget went up at short notice as other states became relatively less wealthy and saw theirs cut.

The Remainer arguments presented here are short termism in its purest form, in the same mould as the remainer commentariat claiming there was no migration crisis just because the entire population of Romania didn’t show up at Waterloo bus station one cold new year’s morning. There have been profound changes in the way things operate precisely because we were previously far more entangled than any sovereign state should be. Short-term problems aren’t denied by those of us who argued for Brexit; quite the contrary. For us they are further proof of the perils of the road we were on. It is ludicrous that we can’t pick soft fruit in our own fields without transporting hundreds of people halfway across the continent and business models that were predicated on that will simply have to change. The same goes for more skilled jobs like HGV driving. If an advanced economy thrives on a skilled workforce, then that is precisely the sort of thing we should be getting our own people in to, via in-house apprenticing. There are far too many job adverts out there from companies that are only interested in fully-qualified and experienced drivers - I.e. they only ever want to benefit from someone else’s effort investment in the driver’s skills. That’s a parasitic mindset but thankfully the reality of the new market conditions should now force it to change.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

They will have to help overcome the issues, gloating isn't going to pay the bills or help them thrive/ survive in their workplace. I never thought brexit wrong just that it's timing was very wrong, we should have done it 20 years ago when it would have been so much easier

Some valid words, above.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Chris

Sadly that was never on the cards. 20 years ago Tony Blair was arguing round the cabinet table to take the UK into the Euro. Gordon Brown, in his one truly magnificent act in government, flat refused to agree to it. Furthermore, the erosion of sovereignty argument, though it had been made forcefully for a decade by that point, still seemed a bit esoteric to the mainstream. We really needed the not-a-constitution Lisbon treaty, and a few years for the reality of unchecked migration to be felt, to demonstrate just how much control we were losing over our own affairs. The Euro crisis was also helpful in that regard, as our contributions to the EU budget went up at short notice as other states became relatively less wealthy and saw theirs cut.

The Remainer arguments presented here are short termism in its purest form, in the same mould as the remainer commentariat claiming there was no migration crisis just because the entire population of Romania didn’t show up at Waterloo bus station one cold new year’s morning. There have been profound changes in the way things operate precisely because we were previously far more entangled than any sovereign state should be. Short-term problems aren’t denied by those of us who argued for Brexit; quite the contrary. For us they are further proof of the perils of the road we were on. It is ludicrous that we can’t pick soft fruit in our own fields without transporting hundreds of people halfway across the continent and business models that were predicated on that will simply have to change. The same goes for more skilled jobs like HGV driving. If an advanced economy thrives on a skilled workforce, then that is precisely the sort of thing we should be getting our own people in to, via in-house apprenticing. There are far too many job adverts out there from companies that are only interested in fully-qualified and experienced drivers - I.e. they only ever want to benefit from someone else’s effort investment in the driver’s skills. That’s a parasitic mindset but thankfully the reality of the new market conditions should now force it to change.

I don't think anyone could have better Chris, as an aside how did all these things happen? Crops picked, deliveries made, etc. All before we joined the (then) EEC?

Oddly enough this country has been quite relaxed in the past about managed immigration to fill labour shortages. The difference (post 1945 for example) is that the shortage was demonstrably serious and chronic and not created by the supposed “solution”.

[tweetiepooh]

An earlier comment that the coincidence of Brexit and Covid have magnified issues. Some could be made easier if both sides eased off a bit on Brexiting to allow all of us to sort out Covid but it's all become too confrontational.


But you would have to think about how Covid would have impacted without Brexit anyway. Would we allow eastern block nationals in if Covid was rampant back home? Would they come if they had to stay here and not return home else possibly not be able to come back?


Another comment mentioned why would you work (especially at a "nasty" job) if you are better off on benefits? An issue here is the way benefits are cut when earning. If there are hard thresholds that causes problems and it's not just reduction in income but possibly linked benefits e.g. free stuff because you are on "full" benefits. Costs involved in taking a job (travel).

[TheDaddy]

Ian Botham is the new trade ambassador to Australia jobs for the boys regardless of qualification, the ruling junta rewarding chums and cronies yet again, what next Timmy Mallet becoming black rod

No what next is prisoners picking fruit according to some non entity member of this cabal, still I'm sure some will think this a good idea

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh

An earlier comment that the coincidence of Brexit and Covid have magnified issues. Some could be made easier if both sides eased off a bit on Brexiting to allow all of us to sort out Covid but it's all become too confrontational.

Johnson was offered a one-year extension by the EU because of Covid but chose to not accept it.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Johnson was offered a one-year extension by the EU because of Covid but chose to not accept it.

We'd be paying in and putting off the what we're now well into.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Johnson was offered a one-year extension by the EU because of Covid but chose to not accept it.

It was a trap.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

It was a trap.

Naturally it was a trap. The EU is so desperate for our cash to prop up their crumbing, corrupt organisation.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Naturally it was a trap. The EU is so desperate for our cash to prop up their crumbing, corrupt organisation.

... and we'd have had to borrow £39 billion more.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

... and we'd have had to borrow £39 billion more.

With our weak recovery, they would probably be paying us.