UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You are only looking at things from the economics perspective.
That's always been your position.

But the corrosive intrusion on our sovereignty by Brussels and their one-size-fits-all approach to our daily lives is what 52% of the population voted to abandon; Project Fear made them more than aware of the potential economic risks.

My fear all along is the economic suffering people will endure and it'll be those that least afford it that bare the brunt, "reclaiming sovereignty" isn't worth losing your job or home over, even that smug ponce rees mogg said it'll take fifty years to feel the economic benefit, who other than non tax paying millionaires can afford to wait that long

Originally Posted by jonbxx

We cede sovereignty all the time from paying taxes to not setting off nuclear bombs all over the place. We do this willingly if there is a clear benefit or unwillingly if the consequences of not complying are worse than the ceding of sovereignty itself.

Exactly, best get out of Nato then

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Mr K

You can also do that with the EU parliament - there are elections.

The European Parliament is a puppet parliament. That doesn't even have the power to propose legislation, only rubber stamp it, from the real power in the EU - the commission.

Tell me, who voted for Von der Leyen? did you?

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Tell me, who voted for Von der Leyen? did you?

We didn't under a direct vote, but we voted for the people and parties who did both at a national level and an EU one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen

On 2 July 2019, Von der Leyen was proposed by the European Council as the candidate for President of the European Commission. She was then elected by the European Parliament on 16 July. she took office on 1 December, becoming the first woman in such role.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council

The European Council (informally EUCO) is a collegiate body that defines the overall political directions and priorities of the European Union. It comprises the heads of state or government of the EU member states, along with the President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

... who gang up on the UK much of the time.

---------- Post added at 15:55 ---------- Previous post was at 15:54 ----------



... one against the other 27. See the WTD for details.

Define 'much of the time'. According to this link it was 2% of the time

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Not under a direct vote, but we voted for the people and parties who did both at a national level an a EU one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council

I know how it works and it's bollocks. I didn't vote for von der Leyen or any commissioners. Just because that's what the system is doesn't make it right.

She, nor any Commissioner, is directly elected nor directly responsible to the electorate. Yet they make the rules.

Democracy 101:

You elect leaders, they are not appointed.

Executive Power is derived from the consent of the governed. We never gave our consent. We were not given the opportunity to vote on the Maasricht or Lisbon treaties.

The Brexit referendum was the UK's first and only opportunity to vote on the EU being a political entity. The first time we were asked to give our consent, we refused to.

That is proper democracy at work.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I know how it works and it's bollocks. I didn't vote for von der Leyen or any commissioners. Just because that's what the system is doesn't make it right.

She, nor any Commissioner, is directly elected nor directly responsible to the electorate. Yet they make the rules.

Democracy 101:

You elect leaders, they are not appointed.

Executive Power is derived from the consent of the governed. We never gave our consent. We were not given the opportunity to vote on the Maasricht or Lisbon treaties.

The Brexit referendum was the UK's first and only opportunity to vote on the EU being a political entity. The first time we were asked to give our consent, we refused to.

That is proper democracy at work.

I didn’t vote for any Lords either.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Pierre

The European Parliament is a puppet parliament. That doesn't even have the power to propose legislation, only rubber stamp it, from the real power in the EU - the commission.

Tell me, who voted for Von der Leyen? did you?

Didn't vote for Boris either , only Con MPs get to decide who is PM. Or for that matter the Queen....

At least the EU elections have proportional representation which means your vote means something. Unless you're in a marginal constituency in this country, your vote is meaningless. The EU could teach us a bit about democracy.

[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Didn't vote for Boris either , only Con MPs get to decide who is PM. Or for that matter the Queen....

At least the EU elections have proportional representation which means your vote means something. Unless you're in a marginal constituency in this country, your vote is meaningless. The EU could teach us a bit about democracy.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

I didn’t vote for any Lords either.

And you won't get any argument from me to scrap that and replace it with something else.

But whataboutary doesn't change the EU point.

Also, small point, but the Lords to not make legislation, they only provide oversight. Pretty much like the European Parliament.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

And you won't get any argument from me to scrap that and replace it with something else.

But whataboutary doesn't change the EU point.

Also, small point, but the Lords to not make legislation, they only provide oversight. Pretty much like the European Parliament.

It’s not really whataboutery. How people define democracy is frequently fluid when it suits them. Majority governments on 36% of the vote and things like that.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I didn't vote for von der Leyen or any commissioners.

You voted Remain, though. Deep in your heart, you know that was the right decision. But because the vote went Leave's way, it's only natural to try and see negative in the EU as we've left them. It makes breaking up easier to do.

[Pierre]

The EU is like voting for your particular party, knowing that they won't "win" or form any type of government, or indeed govern and when the results are in they they take their seats in parliament and they then decide that actually the CEO of HSBC is actually going to run the whole thing and decide what goes on and they'll, you know, just keep an eye on it - but never overrule him.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

The Brexit referendum was the UK's first and only opportunity to vote on the EU being a political entity. The first time we were asked to give our consent, we refused to.

That is proper democracy at work.

In Switzerland, who know a thing or two about referendums, if any misinformation is found to have been published in a referendum, the vote is re-run. It deters the kind of misinformation that we saw around the Brexit Referendum.

That is proper democracy at work.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

You voted Remain, though. Deep in your heart, you know that was the right decision. But because the vote went Leave's way, it's only natural to try and see negative in the EU as we've left them. It makes breaking up easier to do.

I voted remain, because call me clairvoyant, I just knew it would end up being an entire Shitshow from start to finish.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I voted remain, because call me clairvoyant, I just knew it would end up being an entire Shitshow from start to finish.

I think most Remain voters felt this way too.

Many a bowl of cornflakes was spilt hearing the nonsense of Leave politicians like this from Michael Gove. “If we vote to leave then I think the union will be stronger… I think when we vote to leave it will be clear that having voted to leave one union the last thing people in Scotland wanted to do is to break up another.”