Coronavirus (OLD)

[jfman]

Herd immunity by allowing the virus to circulate is not a credible solution - I don’t really see what your objection to the word “discredited” was other than I said it.

We went from herd immunity one week to total lockdown the next. A marked change in policy based on the evidence. I don’t view that straightforward observation as political, to be honest. However as I’ve said before it’s somewhat circuitous and the evidence is there for all to see - even the countries that gave it any credibility have a) economic problems and b) high death counts. Nobody else is going down that route in a hurry, and there’s good reasons why.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Have you only just woken up to this truth? There is no spin, it was government policy on 19 March to send hospital patients back into care homes, without making it mandatory for them to be tested for Covid-19. This is a fact.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? (Of course you are).

The medical professional, in the middle of a killer pandemic, sent patients to care homes without testing them first for the virus. They knew what was going on in their hospitals and were professionally negligent in not testing the ejectees.

It didn't have to be mandatory. You do yourself no credit with your attitude.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The fact that the government didn't make it 'mandatory' does not excuse a so-called 'professional' health service from sending infected patients back into care homes! The professionals I worked with during my employment have all had their own professional codes of practice. Does the NHS not have one that provides that no-one with a highly contageous and deadly disease should be discharged into the community? If not, why not?

Why did the Government guidance explicitly say it wasn’t a requirement then, if they were actually leaving it to be a judgement call?

And laughable Old Boy that you now acknowledge it as highly contagious and deadly when you were underplaying it for so long. It’ll go away in the summer, won’t it?

It's you who is going round in circles, jfman. There is no proof of anything with the figures. They are a correct statement of current figures, but you keep putting them in the context of deaths in other countries, who compile their figures in different ways. Moreover, the virus is still out there - the most recent serious outbreak is in Melbourne, which threatens the whole of Australia with a second peak. This will keep happening until the 'herd immunity', which you dismiss so casually, is achieved.

I casually dismiss it because it’s not a credible solution - Melbourne are indeed going into a lockdown. They do not take these decisions “casually”, it’s the emergency break to stop the spread - one that we will apply just as we had to in March if other measures are unsuccessful at slowing the spread.

Don't expect a vaccine any time soon. We may have scientists all over the world working on it, but we have not found an effective one against any coronovirus yet, and we are unlikely to in the foreseeable future.

The virus is here to stay until it is finished with us. We either prolong the agony or we acknowledge it for what it is, protecting the vulnerable.

The time to judge is when this is over. This is nothing to do with Brexit.

I asbsolutely cannot wait until it is over and I can reflect on being vindicated throughout. Years of economic calamity for countries with no effective public health response, economic prosperity for those who do.

There’s no return to ‘normal’ without a vaccine Old Boy, to claim there is holds no more validity than to claim the earth to be flat. Even if we went down the herd immunity route, making the NHS the Coronavirus Health Service for two years or more leaving to the side important lifesaving treatments for cancer etc, it would take so long and damage the economy without any knowledge of how long any meaningful immunity lasts.

If this idea is so good why did we bother locking down in March? It’s a waste of time, effort and money to end up in the same situation in September but apply no brakes.

Of course those who can see no wrong in any of the Government responses will find some kind of mental gymnastics, as always, to pursue the agenda that the Government is always right even when it contradicts itself.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

Why did the Government guidance explicitly say it wasn’t a requirement then, if they were actually leaving it to be a judgement call?
<SNIP>

Is that right? Explicitly? Don't you mean that government guidance had not made it a requirement to test patients being discharged to a care home?

They are two completely different things.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Is that right? Explicitly? Don't you mean that government guidance had not made it a requirement to test patients being discharged to a care home?

They are two completely different things.

jfman is correct:

On 2 April, the government reiterated in new guidance that “any [care home] resident presenting with symptoms of COVID-19 should be promptly isolated” but specified that “negative tests are not required prior to transfers / admissions into the care home.”

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavi...mes-discharge/

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Is that right? Explicitly? Don't you mean that government guidance had not made it a requirement to test patients being discharged to a care home?

They are two completely different things.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ss-government/

Care homes cannot safely accept hospital patients suffering from coronavirus without risking the lives of residents, ministers were told on Wednesday.

Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, said hospital patients who tested positive for Covid-19 would continue to be discharged into care homes despite growing evidence that the policy is fuelling outbreaks and deaths.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52674073

Moving patients from hospitals to care homes
On 19 March, NHS guidance said that "unless required to be in hospital, patients must not remain in an NHS bed".

This policy was implemented to free up beds in advance of an expected surge in coronavirus patients.

On 2 April, the rules on discharging to care homes were clarified, saying "negative [coronavirus] tests are not required prior to transfers/admissions into the care home".

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Hugh

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ss-government/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52674073

From Telegraph link

Health bosses insist coronavirus patients can be safely admitted to care homes as long as strict guidelines are maintained to prevent the virus spreading.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by nomadking

From Telegraph link

Yup, Matt Hancock and his colleagues.

Originally Posted by nomadking

From Telegraph link

Do you mean the Care Homes that couldn’t purchase the PPE to follow the strict guidelines because most of the available PPE had to go to the NHS because the stockpiles had been run down?

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Do you mean the Care Homes that couldn’t purchase the PPE to follow the strict guidelines because most of the available PPE had to go to the NHS because the stockpiles had been run down?

There are more basic precautions that can be taken, that don't require a mountain of PPE. Much of which they should be doing in normal times. Using hand sanitiser is meant to be a basic matter of routine.


WHO advice

Another option is for patients with mild disease to be isolated and cared for at home.

Caring for infected people at home may put others in the same household at risk, so it’s critical that care-givers follow WHO’s guidance on how to provide care as safely as possible.

For example, both the patient and their care-giver should wear a medical mask when they are together in the same room.

It's amazing the number of things the Government isn't responsible for. It seems everyone else from the NHS to the opposition are to blame for the bad response to this virus. Not having testing in place wasn't their fault, the slow lockdown wasn't their fault, lack of track and trace wasn't their fault, not much PPE wasn't their fault, the advice given to hospitals wasn't their fault and the high death rate in care homes isn't their fault.

Originally Posted by nomadking

There are more basic precautions that can be taken, that don't require a mountain of PPE. Much of which they should be doing in normal times. Using hand sanitiser is meant to be a basic matter of routine.


WHO advice

Your example

a) has nothing to do with Care Homes
b) says PPE is critical (medical masks are PPE)

U.K. Government guidelines for PPE in Care Homes

Recommended PPE items
- disposable gloves
- disposable pladtic aprons
- fluid-repellent surgical mask
- eye protection

Originally Posted by Damien

It's amazing the number of things the Government isn't responsible for. It seems everyone else from the NHS to the opposition are to blame for the bad response to this virus. Not having testing in place wasn't their fault, the slow lockdown wasn't their fault, lack of track and trace wasn't their fault, not much PPE wasn't their fault, the advice given to hospitals wasn't their fault and the high death rate in care homes isn't their fault.

And Boris never,ever apologises.

---------- Post added at 08:58 ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Put as well as I did OB!

Don't expect contrition.

We won't get it from Boris either..

---------- Post added at 08:59 ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

Your example

a) has nothing to do with Care Homes
b) says PPE is critical (medical masks are PPE)

U.K. Government guidelines for PPE in Care Homes

Recommended PPE items
- disposable gloves
- disposable pladtic aprons
- fluid-repellent surgical mask
- eye protection

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Damien

It's amazing the number of things the Government isn't responsible for. It seems everyone else from the NHS to the opposition are to blame for the bad response to this virus. Not having testing in place wasn't their fault, the slow lockdown wasn't their fault, lack of track and trace wasn't their fault, not much PPE wasn't their fault, the advice given to hospitals wasn't their fault and the high death rate in care homes isn't their fault.

Nothing ever is their fault as its far easier to deny and to blame it on others and and having one of the most obsequious media in the world helps their cause considerably as well as none of them ever scrutinises and questions them and their decisions..

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

jfman is correct:

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavi...mes-discharge/

Never mind all these second hand sources. The one that matters is:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...quirements.pdf

Bearing in mind that my point is the professional medical staff should have tested transferred patients (expressly for the purpose of freeing up hospital beds):

1/
Nowhere in the requirements does it say that discharged (into care home) patients are not to be CV tested.

2/
It does say in Annex D, Leaflet A:

Hospital discharge information
It is important that our hospitals are ready to look after people who contract coronavirus (COVID-19) and need hospital care. Due to these pressures, once you no longer need care in hospital, as decided by the health team looking after you, you will be discharged......

I've underlined the piece I want to point out.

As this entire requirements document is all about CV, the "health team looking after you" should only have discharged patients who were not CV positive. It was a professional step that they missed out.