Black Lives Matter

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Maggy

Never heard anything about it..it would be a massive mistake.Erasing any part of history from the syllabus seems absolutely moronic to me. In fact they need to add more especially involving black history and cover how in 2 world wars how people of colour were part of both. They weren't just fought and won by white people.

I think we are all aware that they were world wars not white wars.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Yes - with a colleague who progressed from Apprentice to fully fledged employee and then onto a double salary elsewhere in London.

His attitude was that times had moved on and that in the UK movements of the BLM type were ill-judged, trouble making and a road to nowhere. He is of Sierra Leone origin and some of the influences (apart from me as his manager) were how The UK stood by Sierra Leone during a period of political instability and how the UK responded to the EBOLA plague - plus white girls love him.

It makes one wonder why the demonstrators are bothering given that the trigger was typical US police brutality.

Spot on! The BLM movement was about police brutality in the United States and over here, protesters have hijacked the cause to concentrate on statues. This is pathetic - why do the wreckers get such media attention? Their views are not reflecting the mainstream of public opinion.

Slavery was and is cruel in the extreme, but Britain was the prime mover to abolish it, and we did. Why, therefore, do we have this hard core who are still going on about it now, all these years after abolition? They cannot change history. They should be concentrating on supporting equality for everyone, particularly in the US, and campaigning to tackle head on the problem of modern slavery.

Originally Posted by Chris

Indeed.

Also worth pointing out that this nation, having built so much on the profits of slavery, came to its collective senses, as a result of campaigning by its own people, and not only outlawed the practice but then actively sought its interdiction on the high seas via the Royal Navy.

I’m aware of contemporary complaints that the British government put a stop to it by paying off the slavers, and of the argument that it was somehow therefore just another example of rich men feeding money to other rich men, but this is exactly the sort of argument you get from people who don’t understand how to read history. Within the strictures of the time, it was a pragmatic solution and once done, it allowed this country to lead the world in efforts towards abolition.

Churchill, too, was a man of his time. So was Cecil Rhodes, whose statue at Oxford has been subject to ongoing demands for its removal. So, too, was Edward Colston, and for that matter Andrew Buchanan of Glasgow, who made a fortune from tobacco plantations in Virginia (and therefore, out of slave labour), and whose street in the city centre is now subject to demands it be re-named. Decrying any of these men merely as “racist” is ahistorical. Erasing any of them from memory or from history ensures future generations will be ignorant of history and ill-prepared for their own present. What is required is a proper understanding of context, not self-righteous iconoclasm.

As an educator I abhor removal of historic characters from history. It smacks of manipulation and you don't have to look far to find governments that rely/relied on this method of retaining control of government.

[figgyburn]

Baden Powell is going.Who is next?.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53004638

Originally Posted by papa smurf

I think we are all aware that they were world wars not white wars.

With the heroics being attributed to the British and the US and very little mention given to the African,Arabic,Mediterranean and Asian contributors to the winning of those conflicts.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

I think we are all aware that they were world wars not white wars.

There are endless perspectives you can teach the wars from, from the Hungarian perspective:

A terrorist kills a member of your royal family
The English go to war with you over it
They give half your country to gypsies

This is a sore subject with them to this day.

[Rexz]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

How did you feel when the Saddam Hussein statue in Baghdad was toppled?

Piers.. is that you?

That's a ridiculous question in relation to his statement. Next you will be asking if he was happy the statues of Hitler were taken down (democratically I'll add)

This culture of being apologetic for everything done in the past will never fix history or appease anyone. The slave trade existed in every civilisation whether you was black or white. I don't feel ashamed because I'm white nor do I agree to put a plaque on everything to appease a group of people so they can be reminded continually of bad points in our history. You think adding a plaque to statues would solve everything? What about all the buildings which were funded by it. Or what about wealthy families that profited from it and are in a position of wealth today? What about a plaque for the other statues for adulterers or rapists? How far do you go? Not everything needs to be contextualized to prove a point.

Originally Posted by Rexz

This culture of being apologetic for everything done in the past will never fix history or appease anyone. The slave trade existed in every civilisation whether you was black or white. I don't feel ashamed because I'm white nor do I agree to put a plaque on everything to appease a group of people so they can be reminded continually of bad points in our history. You think adding a plaque to statues would solve everything? What about all the buildings which were funded by it. Or what about wealthy families that profited from it and are in a position of wealth today? What about a plaque for the other statues for adulterers or rapists? How far do you go? Not everything needs to be contextualized to prove a point.

But then the statue of Colston isn't about remembering our history but airbrushing it.

The current plan is now to restore the statue in a museum complete with the graffiti and ropes and explaining who he was, why did had a statue and why it was taken down.

That is actually adding to our history.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Spot on! The BLM movement was about police brutality in the United States and over here, protesters have hijacked the cause to concentrate on statues. This is pathetic - why do the wreckers get such media attention? Their views are not reflecting the mainstream of public opinion.

Slavery was and is cruel in the extreme, but Britain was the prime mover to abolish it, and we did. Why, therefore, do we have this hard core who are still going on about it now, all these years after abolition? They cannot change history. They should be concentrating on supporting equality for everyone, particularly in the US, and campaigning to tackle head on the problem of modern slavery.

Partially correct, BLM is not just about police brutality but also systemic racism in society. There's equal call in the US for removal of statues, Nascar has banned the use of the confederate flag The military were also open to discussing renaming some of their forts until Trump stopped in and blocked it.

Calling people pathetic for exercising their democratic right to protest (that vast majority of it has been peaceful) seems a little off

I don't think many want to change history, but they want a greater degree of acceptance and or knowledge with regards to who suffered.

Let's use the removal of the statue in Bristol as an example. It's removal does not change the historic events, but it does stop the modern day 'celebration' of the man who perpetrated them.

[Rexz]

Originally Posted by Damien

But then the statue of Colston isn't about remembering our history but airbrushing it.

The current plan is now to restore the statue in a museum complete with the graffiti and ropes and explaining who he was, why did had a statue and why it was taken down.

That is actually adding to our history.

That's one statue... what about the rest? Remove them all? That might satisfy the intellectual but it won't satisfy the rest.

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-...lives-18394250

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by Rexz

That's one statue... what about the rest? Remove them all? That might satisfy the intellectual but it won't satisfy the rest.

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-...lives-18394250

This is a misunderstanding, it is the intellectuals who are driving this to the radical extremes.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Rexz

Piers.. is that you?

That's a ridiculous question in relation to his statement. Next you will be asking if he was happy the statues of Hitler were taken down (democratically I'll add)

This culture of being apologetic for everything done in the past will never fix history or appease anyone. The slave trade existed in every civilisation whether you was black or white. I don't feel ashamed because I'm white nor do I agree to put a plaque on everything to appease a group of people so they can be reminded continually of bad points in our history. You think adding a plaque to statues would solve everything? What about all the buildings which were funded by it. Or what about wealthy families that profited from it and are in a position of wealth today? What about a plaque for the other statues for adulterers or rapists? How far do you go? Not everything needs to be contextualized to prove a point.

Nobody says it will fix everything, it does show however that we're more aware as a society of the wrong doings that occurred.

No one is asking people to feel ashamed, we're being asked to think and to teach ourselves about the difficulties that fellow members of the human race face on a daily basis.

---------- Post added at 10:33 ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 ----------

A thought all those who are against the removal of statues etc.

Did you have any complaints when Savilles plaque in Scarbrough was defaced ? Or, when his wooden statue was removed and subsequently destroyed from Scoutston ?

---------- Post added at 10:38 ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

It’s interesting to see CF’ers varying views on this subject.

Has anyone discussed this with black friends, neighbours, or family? What were their views? (if you feel like sharing).

I have, i have staff in both SF & MSP who have explained their experiences it made for very sombre listening.

My brother in law is black, ex forces and has spoken about the experiences he faced whilst serving. Also about his current experiences as a private security contractor overseas. (mix of close protection and other duties)

Originally Posted by Rexz

That's one statue... what about the rest? Remove them all? That might satisfy the intellectual but it won't satisfy the rest.

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-...lives-18394250

As I have said before I believe it depends on who the person is and why they have a statue.

Colston has a slave trader and that's how he got the money he had. As with Confederate Statues in the States I don't think that is worthy of a celebration so if the statue is to remain it should be placed in the context of who he was. Not left alone to celebrate him.

In other cases where the reason they have a statue is different, for a great achievement unrelated to the reason people want them removed, then I believe it should remain. In some circumstances maybe with a plaque explaining a bit further.

The case for Colston's removal is completely morally different from some of the others people have listed.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Nobody says it will fix everything, it does show however that we're more aware as a society of the wrong doings that occurred.

No one is asking people to feel ashamed, we're being asked to think and to teach ourselves about the difficulties that fellow members of the human race face on a daily basis.

---------- Post added at 10:33 ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 ----------

A thought all those who are against the removal of statues etc.

Did you have any complaints when Savilles plaque in Scarbrough was defaced ? Or, when his wooden statue was removed and subsequently destroyed from Scoutston ?

---------- Post added at 10:38 ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 ----------



I have, i have staff in both SF & MSP who have explained their experiences it made for very sombre listening.

My brother in law is black, ex forces and has spoken about the experiences he faced whilst serving. Also about his current experiences as a private security contractor overseas. (mix of close protection and other duties)

Was savilles plaque grade 2 listed?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by figgyburn

Baden Powell is going.Who is next?.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53004638

George VI - the last Emperor of India. To be removed from all past coins, all portraits to be made face to the wall; all newsreel with that racist Churchill to be purged.