Coronavirus (OLD)

[Hom3r]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

You're not having much luck, especially with your mum. I really hope that things start to improve for you and your family.

Thanks, 2020 can truely do one.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

Nomadking you are being selective, as ever. Italian hospitals were trying to contact trace - that isn’t the same as a national contact tracing system, driven by apps, digital data, AND who individuals can confirm they have been in contact with. The two aren’t comparable.

Your persistence in holding up South Korea’s problems as comparable with ours are laughable. Their problems are not having 100% success. Our problems are trying to have any meaningful success at all.

What do you mean “were allowed to be used in the UK” - we’ve left the EU and taken back control. We have a Parliament that legislates for what is permissible in this country.

You’ve finally quoted something relevant - South Korea ploughing thousands of tests at identifying cases and throwing resource at it. We, on the other hand as you appropriately quote for once, have Whitty who doesn’t see the value in trying to find every case. In a pandemic. Sums it up and we will continue to fail until the Government wake up to that.

Like herd immunity week though I expect the usual suspects in the thread to perform a sudden volte face when Government policy finally changes.

AGAIN, I'm NOT being selective. I'm NOT trawling hundreds of articles looking for the "required" quote. I'm also not prepared to simply blindly accept the utter garbage the UK media throws out. It just happened to be in the SAME article of a comparison between South Korea and Italy.

Italy started out testing widely, then narrowed the focus so that now, the authorities don’t have to process hundreds of thousands of tests. But there’s a trade-off: They can’t see what’s coming and are trying to curb the movements of the country’s entire population of 60 million people to contain the disease.

Now imagine extrapolating requiring 8,600 police officers and TWO thousand unidentified people, for EACH AND EVERY night club area in the UK. Is widespread use of phone data and CCTV and credit card details accepted in the UK? Of course not. South Korea put there systems in place after their 2015 MERS(Middle East Respiratory Syndrome) outbreak. As I've also previously pointed out, in South Korea they readily wear face masks/coverings. If South Korea hadn't had all their LAWS and systems in place BEFORE all this, then they would've also been badly affected. They identified a case where somebody was travelling to Japan via South Korea. By identifying that problem person, they prevented more cases occurring in Japan.

Seoul says it is building on lessons learned from an outbreak of Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) in 2015 and working to make as much information available as possible to the public. It has embarked on a massive testing program, including people who have very mild illness, or perhaps don’t even have symptoms, but who may be able to infect others. This includes enforcing a law that grants the government wide authority to access data: CCTV footage, GPS tracking data from phones and cars, credit card transactions, immigration entry information, and other personal details of people confirmed to have an infectious disease. The authorities can then make some of this public, so anyone who may have been exposed can get themselves - or their friends and family members - tested.

Doesn't look like South Korea has an app.

Testing of the Immuni contact-tracing app, designed to help Italy manage phase two of the coronavirus crisis, is to start from Monday June 8th after the country's privacy ombudsman gave the go-ahead.

The first trials of the app will begin in the regions of Liguria, Puglia, Marche and Abruzzo before later being rolled out nationwide, possibly by the following Monday, June 15th.
"We’re starting with a test that will last several days and then, next week or the week after, it will be extended to everyone," stated Deputy Health Minister Pierpaolo Sileri.
...
Use of the app is voluntary. Developed by Milan-based startup Bending Spoons, it works using Bluetooth.
After installation, it requires some basic personal details including your town of residence. After that, “the system will function automatically”, according the app's official website.
If two smartphones with the app installed are less than one metre apart, they exchange automatically generated codes which make it possible to trace previous contacts in case one of the users is diagnosed with the virus.

Isn't that what the UK media have been whinging about? Then again, what haven't they whinged about?

However, France, the UK and Norway - one of the first European countries to launch its app - are all using a technology in which a central server holds data on who came into contact with an infected person. Proponents of this approach say this facilitates the work of health officials but critics claim it raises privacy concerns.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Isn't that what the UK media have been whinging about? Then again, what haven't they whinged about?

Not sure about the use of the word whinging is correct. The media and social media reported concerns about the app's effectiveness and it was discussed in this very thread.

Not sure where the app is anyway. They've been downplaying it recently that when it does come out it won't be playing a central role, or at least that what it seems. Personally I still think their attempt to get around iOS's Bluetooth protections won't really work at any sort of scale.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Damien

Not sure where the app is anyway. They've been downplaying it recently that when it does come out it won't be playing a central role, or at least that what it seems. Personally I still think their attempt to get around iOS's Bluetooth protections won't really work at any sort of scale.

Strange that other countries don't have the same concerns. Eg Norway.
April 16th.

Smittestopp (Infection Stop) is a new smartphone app for iOS and Android. The app is designed to help health authorities limit the spread of coronavirus, which has so far claimed more than 150 lives in Norway.
...

The app uses a smartphone's built-in location services features along with Bluetooth to detect other nearby phones with the app installed.

17 May 2020 - Norway's Smittestopp app, or “infection stop”, launched in mid-April but only one-fifth of its adult population are actively using it.

Others, though, are still forging ahead with the centralised approach. France's digital minister has said it intends to launch its StopCovid app by 2 June, and is attempting to press Apple into a U-turn of its own.
"Apple could have helped us make the application work even better on the iPhone," said digital minister Cédric O on Tuesday. "They have wished not to do so. I regret this."

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Damien

Not sure where the app is anyway. They've been downplaying it recently that when it does come out it won't be playing a central role, or at least that what it seems. Personally I still think their attempt to get around iOS's Bluetooth protections won't really work at any sort of scale.

Speaking on the BBC's Question Time on Thursday, Mr Zahawi [Business Minister] said: "The app, we are working flat out. We want to make sure it actually does everything it needs to do and will be in place this month.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52931232
Let's see...

---------- Post added at 23:36 ---------- Previous post was at 23:26 ----------

Originally Posted by nomadking

Strange that other countries don't have the same concerns. Eg Norway.
April 16th.

I'm slightly confused as you then proceed to quote the following from an unnamed source stating France does have concerns.

Apple could have helped us make the application work even better on the iPhone," said digital minister Cédric O on Tuesday. "They have wished not to do so. I regret this."

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

AGAIN, I'm NOT being selective. I'm NOT trawling hundreds of articles looking for the "required" quote. I'm also not prepared to simply blindly accept the utter garbage the UK media throws out. It just happened to be in the SAME article of a comparison between South Korea and Italy.

Now imagine extrapolating requiring 8,600 police officers and TWO thousand unidentified people, for EACH AND EVERY night club area in the UK. Is widespread use of phone data and CCTV and credit card details accepted in the UK? Of course not. South Korea put there systems in place after their 2015 MERS(Middle East Respiratory Syndrome) outbreak. As I've also previously pointed out, in South Korea they readily wear face masks/coverings. If South Korea hadn't had all their LAWS and systems in place BEFORE all this, then they would've also been badly affected. They identified a case where somebody was travelling to Japan via South Korea. By identifying that problem person, they prevented more cases occurring in Japan.

Doesn't look like South Korea has an app.

Isn't that what the UK media have been whinging about? Then again, what haven't they whinged about?

Watch The country that beat the virus - a Channel 4 documentary to see what we’ve done vs South Korea. While not a fan of the title, it shows what routine, effective measures to contain pandemics apply to countries that lack English exceptionalism.

You’re also making up completely excessive and ridiculous requirements to simply claim we couldn’t do it. 2,000 people per night club? Where does it say South Korea have that?

Do you think South Korea only has one night club?

You’re clutching at the very end of a thin straw with your arguments here. And I’ve seen you copy and paste the same irrelevant evidence often enough to know you are being selective and ignoring the plethora of evidence and statistics out there to support the idea that South Korea have handled this well and England have not.

Given the daily differences and trends for infection and death counts in the devolved administrations I’m not sure it’s fair to tar them with the same brush. Of the 357 deaths added to the figures only 12 were in Scotland, 4 in Wales and 1 in Northern Ireland. With healthcare being a devolved matter it’s going to be interesting to see these figures move in the next weeks and months. No doubt England’s figure will be higher for “cultural” reasons or counting discrepancies as is the norm.

Originally Posted by nomadking

Strange that other countries don't have the same concerns. Eg Norway.
April 16th.

Well, France seems to have a concern considering they're stating Apple could have made it work better. Make it better than doing what all Governments want IT firms to do with is weaken privacy measures in their technologies.

Besides I am not talking about any Government has concerns about, I am talking about how effective it will be in practice.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52931232
Let's see...

---------- Post added at 23:36 ---------- Previous post was at 23:26 ----------


I'm slightly confused as you then proceed to quote the following from an unnamed source stating France does have concerns.

But they got around them. Apple making it more difficult doesn't mean they have got around the problems and gone ahead with it anyway. A central point is that NOBODY had tracing apps in place before all this.

Originally Posted by nomadking

But they got around them. Apple making it more difficult doesn't mean they have got around the problems and gone ahead with it anyway. A central point is that NOBODY had tracing apps in place before all this.

But have they got around the problems? Just because they released something doesn't mean it's working well. The French Minister didn't say they got around the problem, they said Apple could make it work better which presumably means they are hitting issues around Bluetooth.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

But they got around them. Apple making it more difficult doesn't mean they have got around the problems and gone ahead with it anyway. A central point is that NOBODY had tracing apps in place before all this.

Yet South Korea developed one in days. The central point is that you will simply throw around any spurious evidence around to defend the English response at all costs.

Is there a body count at which you might step back and say it went badly? 100,000? 250,000?

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

Watch The country that beat the virus - a Channel 4 documentary to see what we’ve done vs South Korea. While not a fan of the title, it shows what routine, effective measures to contain pandemics apply to countries that lack English exceptionalism.

You’re also making up completely excessive and ridiculous requirements to simply claim we couldn’t do it. 2,000 people per night club? Where does it say South Korea have that?

Do you think South Korea only has one night club?

You’re clutching at the very end of a thin straw with your arguments here. And I’ve seen you copy and paste the same irrelevant evidence often enough to know you are being selective and ignoring the plethora of evidence and statistics out there to support the idea that South Korea have handled this well and England have not.

Given the daily differences and trends for infection and death counts in the devolved administrations I’m not sure it’s fair to tar them with the same brush. Of the 357 deaths added to the figures only 12 were in Scotland, 4 in Wales and 1 in Northern Ireland. With healthcare being a devolved matter it’s going to be interesting to see these figures move in the next weeks and months. No doubt England’s figure will be higher for “cultural” reasons or counting discrepancies as is the norm.

I did watch it. I saw all the people wearing face masks as I said. I also referred to the person travelling to Japan via South Korea that was intercepted that was in that programme. They only had in the main, ONE point of introduction, IE China. By the time it arrived in the UK, it was coming in from just about everywhere, China, Germany, Italy, Austria etc. That meant MORE places around the UK where it was introduced and spread.

In general, in countries like Japan and South Korea, the people readily wear face masks. That can be seen EACH year with a "standard" flu outbreak.

As the programme said, The UK DID have contact tracing.

The UK response was based upon previous flu outbreaks which had been less serious. Even South Korea was caught out by their more serious MERS outbreak in 2015. That influenced their future planning. That also meant their society was more amenable to the level of contact tracing required. Which of their measures is accepted in the UK? Facial recognition on CCTV? No. Checking of credit card data? No. Checking of mobile phones? No. Publishing limited details of infected people? Not a chance.

If the MERS outbreak hadn't happened there previously, then even South Korea wouldn't have been prepared for COVID-19.

In the UK hand sanitisers wouldn't last long inside a lift. People have ripped them off the walls in hospitals.

The South Koreans abandoned contact tracing in the city of Daegu because the numbers involved was too large. The response of the people of the city(2.5m of them, think Birmingham) was to VOLUNTARILY stay at home. Yet at one hospital 100 out of 102 caught the virus. Not exactly a success story.

The overwhelming reason for the differences is the morons in this country, especially in the media. The outbreak in Daegu was largely down to a moron who initially refused to be tested.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

I did watch it. I saw all the people wearing face masks as I said. I also referred to the person travelling to Japan via South Korea that was intercepted that was in that programme. They only had in the main, ONE point of introduction, IE China. By the time it arrived in the UK, it was coming in from just about everywhere, China, Germany, Italy, Austria etc. That meant MORE places around the UK where it was introduced and spread.

One that they caught was referenced in the programme. There have been others (else surely the virus wouldn’t be present at all?). What they’ve shown is how to target individual infections and break chains of transmission.

This applies whether in villages, towns, cities, at train stations, in airports.

They have a well oiled machine designed to find and stamp out the virus.

We’ve scientific advisers that says it’s too hard and shrug their shoulders. It’s a bad flu, after all.

In general, in countries like Japan and South Korea, the people readily wear face masks. That can be seen EACH year with a "standard" flu outbreak.

And the Government here advised against.

As the programme said, The UK DID have contact tracing.

And abandoned it because without airport screening and large scale testing it’s pissing in the wind. All because we took the decision it wasn’t worth identifying individual cases to stamp out the outbreak.

That was a political choice along with “herd immunity week“.

The UK response was based upon previous flu outbreaks which had been less serious. Even South Korea was caught out by their more serious MERS outbreak in 2015. That influenced their future planning. That also meant their society was more amenable to the level of contact tracing required. Which of their measures is accepted in the UK? Facial recognition on CCTV? No. Checking of credit card data? No. Checking of mobile phones? No. Publishing limited details of infected people? Not a chance.

The word you are looking for is flawed, Nomadking. The response was flawed.

What measures the UK public would tolerate would vary depending on what options you were giving them - framed against a choice of lockdowns and the economy tanking very quickly people would be amenable to some of the measures in South Korea.

If the MERS outbreak hadn't happened there previously, then even South Korea wouldn't have been prepared for COVID-19.

Finally, a sensible point. Yes, South Korea are world leaders in this field based on experience. Not guesswork.

In the UK hand sanitisers wouldn't last long inside a lift. People have ripped them off the walls in hospitals.

The South Koreans abandoned contact tracing in the city of Daegu because the numbers involved were too large. The response of the people of the city(2.5m of them, think Birmingham) was to VOLUNTARILY stay at home. Yet at a hospital 100 out of 102 caught the virus. Not exactly a success story.

Back to your selective use of evidence once more. Look at the headline infection and death rates in South Korea and less severe economic impact.

You are putting up the straw man that if South Korea have ANY INFECTIONS AT ALL that is failure.

Any impartial observer, not desperate to defend our response at any cost would happily swap it for the 99.99% of times South Korea get it right.

The overwhelming reason for the differences is the morons in this country, especially in the media. The outbreak in Daegu was largely down to a moron who initially refused to be tested.

No individual can beat the pandemic. People get infected in workplaces, in cars, at home and on public transport.

This requires state infrastructure in place to test, trace and isolate. Again you are simply trying to absolve the Government of blame.

While those on benefits can sit at home with their feed up in a global pandemic the workforce needs the state to make going to work and carrying out relatively normal activities to be made as safe as possible. That requires test, trace and isolate.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

Yet South Korea developed one in days. The central point is that you will simply throw around any spurious evidence around to defend the English response at all costs.

Is there a body count at which you might step back and say it went badly? 100,000? 250,000?

They developed an app in days? All they did was publish limited details eg "male, aged 58, who is a Banker has passed in this area". They DIDN'T have one that said "somebody with the virus has been within 2m of you". Simply knowing that somebody has been in the same large building(eg hotel), isn't much use. All South Korea have is a DATABASE, of info that wouldn't be allowed in the UK.



There is of course zilch evidence that apps make the slightest difference.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

They developed an app in days? All they did was publish limited details eg "male, aged 58, who is a Banker has passed in this area". They DIDN'T have one that said "somebody with the virus has been within 2m of you". Simply knowing that somebody has been in the same large building(eg hotel), isn't much use. All South Korea have is a DATABASE, of info that wouldn't be allowed in the UK.

There is of course zilch evidence that apps make the slightest difference.

Selective quotation of post. Check.

Ah once again the South Korean response “isn’t much use”.

How many have to die before you recognise ours “isn’t much use”? 100,000? 250,000?

Knowing you’ve been in a hotel where someone has Coronavirus I’d say is very useful information. Isolate, arrange a test, positive - get medical care if appropriate and isolate. Negative: move on with your live as normal. Easy.

Positive: those you’ve been in contact with between dates X and Y do the same. Negative: they continue on with their lives unaware.

In South Korea its bread and butter stuff. Here, it’s “too hard”.

“Not allowed in UK” - Government makes our laws.

You just don’t get it, do you?