Election 2019 - Week 3

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

Individuals no, but collectively yes. Maybe not consciously, but politicians took one off windfalls from privatisation and squandered it leaving us where we are today. 2 trillion in debt.

I'm interested in how 2 trillion is sustainable but 2.2 trillion and holding state assets - like broadband networks - isn't.



The starting point is for politicians to be honest that the low tax economy is essentially a deception funded from one off windfalls.

It's about time you started being honest. The £2 trillion debt was not caused by privatisation. You are trying to move the goalposts. Unsuccessfully, I would add.

---------- Post added at 16:51 ---------- Previous post was at 16:49 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

A man of his expensive education would have been able to articulate himself better if that was actually true.

I don't need to see it through your rose tinted spectacles to know that, at all costs, you will defend the Conservative party.

Once again, read the article.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

It's about time you started being honest. The £2 trillion debt was not caused by privatisation. You are trying to move the goalposts. Unsuccessfully, I would add.

Putting words in my mouth I see. I said despite privatisation, selling off all state assets to the private sector, that for 40 years your neo-liberal economic model has failed this country. These assets didn’t generate revenue at privatisation because they were competitive markets - they did so because of the limited scope for competition that we say today. They were selling future profits.

2 trillion of debt. 40 years of failure.

Going round in circles again - move on, please (or expect fracks).

Originally Posted by Hugh

Going round in circles again - move on, please (or expect fracks).

The first one has been given, more to follow if people cant follow instructions.

[Dave42]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Voters have to take some of the blame here not just politicians. We want tax cuts and increased spending on public services. We're conning ourselves and vote for those that promise the impossible.

all parties been guilty of that though that's the problem

[Sephiroth]

Looking at the Labour vote count on the forum, I'm not sure that the antisemitism thing is fully understood.

In terms of Jewish feelings, there are several factors in play here

1. Historic persecution in Europe (and UK 500 years ago);

2. Nazism & the Holocaust;

3. A leaning towards socialism as an antithesis to fascism;

4. Inner security that they could always bolt to Israel if things get bad.

Corbyn's past championing of terrorist causes, including Arab terrorism, makes Jews nervous.

Momentum's hatred of Israel (as in support for Palestine) which then affects Jews who have an obvious degree of support for Israel (and not necessarily their settlements activities) then begin to feel uncomfortable.

It is utterly unacceptable that a mainstream UK political party should be so inconsiderate towards the Jewish minority in the UK.

So the Chief Rabbi then recommends to Jews that their vote should not go to Labour - which is unnatural for most Jews. For Jews to be considering the Israel bolthole from our country is so far beyond the pale that I'm lost for the best words.

Those on this forum who will vote Labour are accepting this awful situation and need to re-evaluate their position.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Looking at the Labour vote count on the forum, I'm not sure that the antisemitism thing is fully understood.

In terms of Jewish feelings, there are several factors in play here

1. Historic persecution in Europe (and UK 500 years ago);

2. Nazism & the Holocaust;

3. A leaning towards socialism as an antithesis to fascism;

4. Inner security that they could always bolt to Israel if things get bad.

Corbyn's past championing of terrorist causes, including Arab terrorism, makes Jews nervous.

Momentum's hatred of Israel (as in support for Palestine) which then affects Jews who have an obvious degree of support for Israel (and not necessarily their settlements activities) then begin to feel uncomfortable.

It is utterly unacceptable that a mainstream UK political party should be so inconsiderate towards the Jewish minority in the UK.

So the Chief Rabbi then recommends to Jews that their vote should not go to Labour - which is unnatural for most Jews. For Jews to be considering the Israel bolthole from our country is so far beyond the pale that I'm lost for the best words.

Those on this forum who will vote Labour are accepting this awful situation and need to re-evaluate their position.

Problem Corbyn in particular had, was a weak response to accusations of Anti-Semitism, no proper in-depth enquiry. This has allowed the extreme RW to capitalise on this. The irony being the extreme RW are the most racist leaning of all.

Originally Posted by Angua

Problem Corbyn in particular had, was a weak response to accusations of Anti-Semitism, no proper in-depth enquiry. This has allowed the extreme RW to capitalise on this. The irony being the extreme RW are the most racist leaning of all.

There is no such terms. You cannot be, just a little bit racist, or more racist than someone else or group of people. Racism is racism.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Mick

There is no such terms. You cannot be, just a little bit racist, or more racist than someone else or group of people. Racism is racism.

Indeed, whether it it anti-Semitism or Islamophobia. You can't just call one out and ignore the other.

Originally Posted by Angua

Problem Corbyn in particular had, was a weak response to accusations of Anti-Semitism, no proper in-depth enquiry. This has allowed the extreme RW to capitalise on this. The irony being the extreme RW are the most racist leaning of all.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Indeed, whether it it anti-Semitism or Islamophobia. You can't just call one out and ignore the other.

Which is the reason Corbyn is in such hot water at the moment.

Labour has a large and quite specific problem with anti-Semitism, brought about by the hard left’s obsession with Palestine. They are powerless to affect the issue directly because Israel doesn’t export that much to us, so they can’t demonstrate their righteousness with a high-profile boycott, so they do the next best thing, which is to put the boot in to anyone they perceive as an ideological opponent. The difference between the state of Israel and the traditional religion of Israel becomes blurred and hey presto.

Meanwhile on the far right there is the same old obsession with people who look a bit funny, sound a bit funny and are attacking our way of life. But their hatred lacks the focus of the anti-Semitism of the left. There are no Tory-affiliated fringe groups organising meetings where the platform is regularly given over to people who question a nation state’s right to exist. Their racism is no less serious in itself but it simply is not the same embedded, organised, campaigning cancer that it is on the left.

Crucially, the leader of the Tories is not an ideological bedfellow of those on the far right who express anti-Islamic racism. (No, he just isn’t, and no amount of whataboutery will alter that essential fact). Johnson is prone to writing buffoonish caricatures because he is a newspaper columnist who is used to being read only by those who share his casual disregard for the power of words to offend those of different backgrounds. Senior Muslims have called him out over it. But none of them has ever gone so far as to say their entire community is beginning to question its safety in the UK in the way the Chief Rabbi did yesterday.

Corbyn, while I’m certain he does not consider himself racist, seems absolutely blind to what his personal obsession with the Palestinian question has enabled his ideological supporters to do. The Left is obsessed with who it shares a platform with, yet Corbyn is unable to see how his repeated sharing of platforms with his “friends from Hamas” has thereby domesticated and justified those in his party who think it is justified to believe a nation state should be driven into the sea. Labour has a serious, organised problem with anti-Semitism among the very people within the party who put Corbyn in his post. And yet Corbyn just can’t see how he is damaging his own cause by refusing to call them out, directly and specifically, preferring instead to stick to his usual formula of generic condemnation of all bad things everywhere at all times. No matter how sincere he is, he sounds evasive and unfocused.

Above all, Corbyn makes himself look like he doesn’t know how to handle a crisis. In fact he makes himself look like he doesn’t necessarily see a crisis, even when it’s right on top of him. In the middle of a general election campaign, that’s not a good look.

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Indeed, whether it it anti-Semitism or Islamophobia. You can't just call one out and ignore the other.

You can when one of them is your team.

Anyway, had our first election leaflet yesterday from Mary Creagh (let's be generous and call her very remain leaning). Wakefield voted leave but there's no mention of leaving the EU anywhere in her begging leaflet - quite a risky approach I think as she's only got a small majority. If she'd confronted the issue head on I think many people would have some respect for her. As it is she's come across as ignoring a big issue which just makes her appear arrogant.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Chris

The difference between the state of Israel and the traditional religion of Israel becomes blurred and hey presto.

And that's just how the Israeli government likes it, they regularly conflate criticism of Israel as antisemitic,
Labour should have remembered their shared history of sticking up for and being allied with British Jews rather than allienating them, stupid and so avoidable imo, the standard of politician we're turning out is truely abysmal

Originally Posted by Chris

Which is the reason Corbyn is in such hot water at the moment.

Labour has a large and quite specific problem with anti-Semitism, brought about by the hard left’s obsession with Palestine. They are powerless to affect the issue directly because Israel doesn’t export that much to us, so they can’t demonstrate their righteousness with a high-profile boycott, so they do the next best thing, which is to put the boot in to anyone they perceive as an ideological opponent. The difference between the state of Israel and the traditional religion of Israel becomes blurred and hey presto.

Meanwhile on the far right there is the same old obsession with people who look a bit funny, sound a bit funny and are attacking our way of life. But their hatred lacks the focus of the anti-Semitism of the left. There are no Tory-affiliated fringe groups organising meetings where the platform is regularly given over to people who question a nation state’s right to exist. Their racism is no less serious in itself but it simply is not the same embedded, organised, campaigning cancer that it is on the left.

Crucially, the leader of the Tories is not an ideological bedfellow of those on the far right who express anti-Islamic racism. (No, he just isn’t, and no amount of whataboutery will alter that essential fact). Johnson is prone to writing buffoonish caricatures because he is a newspaper columnist who is used to being read only by those who share his casual disregard for the power of words to offend those of different backgrounds. Senior Muslims have called him out over it. But none of them has ever gone so far as to say their entire community is beginning to question its safety in the UK in the way the Chief Rabbi did yesterday.

Corbyn, while I’m certain he does not consider himself racist, seems absolutely blind to what his personal obsession with the Palestinian question has enabled his ideological supporters to do. The Left is obsessed with who it shares a platform with, yet Corbyn is unable to see how his repeated sharing of platforms with his “friends from Hamas” has thereby domesticated and justified those in his party who think it is justified to believe a nation state should be driven into the sea. Labour has a serious, organised problem with anti-Semitism among the very people within the party who put Corbyn in his post. And yet Corbyn just can’t see how he is damaging his own cause by refusing to call them out, directly and specifically, preferring instead to stick to his usual formula of generic condemnation of all bad things everywhere at all times. No matter how sincere he is, he sounds evasive and unfocused.

Above all, Corbyn makes himself look like he doesn’t know how to handle a crisis. In fact he makes himself look like he doesn’t necessarily see a crisis, even when it’s right on top of him. In the middle of a general election campaign, that’s not a good look.

So do we choose Boris who seems to be a proven liar and also has some dubious remarks about Muslims in his past? Seems we are between the devil and a hard place at the moment for choice.

[JMcB]

Is it ok that the news keep running the Corbin story but never run this one

Muslim Council criticises Tories over Islamophobia

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50561043

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by JMcB

Is it ok that the news keep running the Corbin story but never run this one

Muslim Council criticises Tories over Islamophobia

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50561043

Says he posting a link to a news site.