Election 2019, Week 1

[denphone]

Ian Austin sticking the boot into Jeremy Corbyn this morning.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...nomy-live-news

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

I haven’t seen anything where the Labour Party official position would be to campaign against it’s own deal. Only that the party would remain neutral, but individuals could campaign as they wished.

The raison d'etre of Brexit is to get rid EU nationals in the workforce. Anything else is speculative.

I think many remainers do not understand the reasons why leavers voted as they did, and they are trying to portray them as racists, ignorami, wishing to go back to the days of Empire, etc.

The reasons vary, but personally, I voted Brexit because:

1. EU rules are stifling business and the laws they make are unduly complex and difficult to understand. Employers are having to make much more use of lawyers to ensure they stay on the right side of the law, but even they will tell you that the ECJ could decide to go against you, even if you have complied with the provisions set out. Far better that we set our own laws which are actually understandable and relevant to how we wish to operate.

2. Belonging to the customs union means that we cannot make our own trade deals. Existing EU trade deals are useful, but we could construct our own which better match our own requirements. The scope for improvement to take into account our interests is considerable, and would bring more trade to GB. Clearly, our trade with the EU would continue much as it does now.

3. We should be attracting into this country people who have the skills and the abilities we need and not allow in just anybody who wants to take advantage of us or seek a better life to the detriment of our own citizens. We are but a small country and it is self evident that there must be a limit on the number of people coming in (unless, of course, this is balanced by those leaving the country).

4. The EU is structurally unsustainable. The Euro is a major problem because there are no central fiscal rules to which EU countries must abide. Greece is a good example of how its reckless policies undermined the EU economy. Sooner or later, the whole EU operation is likely to implode and we do not want to be a part of that when it happens.

5. The EU is undemocratic although there is a facade in place to make it look as though it is a democratic organisation. MEPs may gain knowledge of what their voters want but are powerless to deliver it unless the bureaucrats bring such legislation forward. Imagine the UK operating in that way. Would you really want Civil Servants setting the agenda rather than our elected MPs?

Those were my principal reasons. Others will have theirs. But to say it was just to get EU nationals out of the workforce is simplifying the rationale of leavers to a very extreme degree. It is true that in some of the poorer areas, EU nationals are seen to be coming in and being prepared to work for lower wages, thereby depriving UK nationals of employment opportunities. This is a valid concern, but it is far from the only reason that leavers have taken the position they have.

---------- Post added at 08:46 ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 ----------

Originally Posted by denphone

Ian Austin sticking the boot into Jeremy Corbyn this morning.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...nomy-live-news

It is reassuring there there are still Labour MPs who have common sense. There are many of them who are despairing of Jeremy Corbyn and what he is doing to the Labour Party.

The sooner he is gone, the better, but he needs to be replaced by someone who can actually relate to the majority of the electorate.

I think people will be a little surprised at how many voters he has lost for the Labour Party when the result of the election is known. Some of them will move to the Lib Dems, Brexit Party and the Conservatives, but many will stay at home. This diminished Labour support will let the Conservatives in with a commanding majority and at last we will be proud again of our House of Commons.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

It is reassuring there there are still Labour MPs who have common sense. There are many of them who are despairing of Jeremy Corbyn and what he is doing to the Labour Party.

He's not a Labour MP.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I think many remainers do not understand the reasons why leavers voted as they did, and they are trying to portray them as racists, ignorami, wishing to go back to the days of Empire, etc.

The reasons vary, but personally, I voted Brexit because:

1. EU rules are stifling business and the laws they make are unduly complex and difficult to understand. Employers are having to make much more use of lawyers to ensure they stay on the right side of the law, but even they will tell you that the ECJ could decide to go against you, even if you have complied with the provisions set out. Far better that we set our own laws which are actually understandable and relevant to how we wish to operate.

2. Belonging to the customs union means that we cannot make our own trade deals. Existing EU trade deals are useful, but we could construct our own which better match our own requirements. The scope for improvement to take into account our interests is considerable, and would bring more trade to GB. Clearly, our trade with the EU would continue much as it does now.

3. We should be attracting into this country people who have the skills and the abilities we need and not allow in just anybody who wants to take advantage of us or seek a better life to the detriment of our own citizens. We are but a small country and it is self evident that there must be a limit on the number of people coming in (unless, of course, this is balanced by those leaving the country).

4. The EU is structurally unsustainable. The Euro is a major problem because there are no central fiscal rules to which EU countries must abide. Greece is a good example of how its reckless policies undermined the EU economy. Sooner or later, the whole EU operation is likely to implode and we do not want to be a part of that when it happens.

5. The EU is undemocratic although there is a facade in place to make it look as though it is a democratic organisation. MEPs may gain knowledge of what their voters want but are powerless to deliver it unless the bureaucrats bring such legislation forward. Imagine the UK operating in that way. Would you really want Civil Servants setting the agenda rather than our elected MPs?

Those were my principal reasons. Others will have theirs. But to say it was just to get EU nationals out of the workforce is simplifying the rationale of leavers to a very extreme degree. It is true that in some of the poorer areas, EU nationals are seen to be coming in and being prepared to work for lower wages, thereby depriving UK nationals of employment opportunities. This is a valid concern, but it is far from the only reason that leavers have taken the position they have.

---------- Post added at 08:46 ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 ----------



It is reassuring there there are still Labour MPs who have common sense. There are many of them who are despairing of Jeremy Corbyn and what he is doing to the Labour Party.

The sooner he is gone, the better, but he needs to be replaced by someone who can actually relate to the majority of the electorate.

I think people will be a little surprised at how many voters he has lost for the Labour Party when the result of the election is known. Some of them will move to the Lib Dems, Brexit Party and the Conservatives, but many will stay at home. This diminished Labour support will let the Conservatives in with a commanding majority and at last we will be proud again of our House of Commons.

This isn't the Brexit thread, from which I'm currently banned, so I'm not going to address your points, which I suspect you've had three years to formulate after the fact.

The UK can hardly be democratic with majority Governments that 65% of people voted for someone else.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

This isn't the Brexit thread, from which I'm currently banned, so I'm not going to address your points, which I suspect you've had three years to formulate after the fact.

The UK can hardly be democratic with majority Governments that 65% of people voted for someone else.

But that 65% is still less than for every other party, so how would that work?

[gba93]

Originally Posted by jfman

This isn't the Brexit thread, from which I'm currently banned, so I'm not going to address your points, which I suspect you've had three years to formulate after the fact.

It may be beyond your comprehension but some people who voted to leave (maybe even most or, heaven forbid, all) had considered all those factors in arriving at their decision. We didn't all just follow the herd and vote mindlesely for leaving as you appear to think we did.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

But that 65% is still less than for every other party, so how would that work?

Proportional representation. As in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Germany, etc.

---------- Post added at 11:38 ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 ----------

Originally Posted by gba93

It may be beyond your comprehension but some people who voted to leave (maybe even most or, heaven forbid, all) had considered all those factors in arriving at their decision. We didn't all just follow the herd and vote mindlesely for leaving as you appear to think we did.

I doubt 33 million people sought to educate themselves on all of those matters.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

Proportional representation. As in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Germany, etc.

---------- Post added at 11:38 ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 ----------
I doubt 33 million people sought to educate themselves on all of those matters.

So we get a government nobody voted for and can't get rid of. Also it would more than likely end up being an never ending Labour dictatorship.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Well, you would say that, wouldn't you? But wait a minute, did you actually miss the most significant admission of Labour's ineptitude in this piece? Even the author had to admit:

One argument is that if the UK had run a balanced budget in the 2000s, public sector debt would have been lower and the UK would have had more room for manoeuvre in pursuing expansionary fiscal policy when the recession hit and we needed expansionary fiscal policy.

There is some credence to this, with a balanced budget and lower public sector debt to start with, governments may have felt greater confidence to borrow even more in the recession – when the UK economy needed expansionary fiscal policy.

Thank you for the confirmation of what I have been saying all this time.

I chose this article because it was reasonably balanced and offered an objective opinion. Things that you seem to be incapable of understanding. All Governments can be criticised with the clarity of hindsight but the essence of this article is that the overwhelming cause of the 10 years of austerity was the 2008/9 financial crisis caused by the City and their free market greed. Furthermore, the people who caused this get bailed out by us, the tax payer, with no penalties and are now busy working a repeat of 2008/9.

Your inability to assign the blame at the door of those responsible speaks volumes ...

[gba93]

Originally Posted by jfman

Proportional representation. As in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Germany, etc.

---------- Post added at 11:38 ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 ----------



I doubt 33 million people sought to educate themselves on all of those matters.

... and I doubt that all the Remain voters "educated" themselves either - if they had have done they may well have voted differently.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I think many remainers do not understand the reasons why leavers voted as they did, and they are trying to portray them as racists, ignorami, wishing to go back to the days of Empire, etc.

Give it a break. The "I know what I voted for" ship has long sailed. All the adults in the room understand that people voted for many different reasons. In fact, and this is a real shock I suspect, some voted for no reason at all. They didn't give a damn because no-one gave a damn about them.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

In fact, and this is a real shock I suspect, some voted for no reason at all. They didn't give a damn because no-one gave a damn about them.

Certainly some semblance of truth in there.
I think there were some (number unknown) who voted leave simply as a protest vote, not believing leave would win, but hoping to show a large enough vote for it that Government would take notice of discontent in general.

How those people would vote now is anybodies guess

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

So we get a government nobody voted for and can't get rid of. Also it would more than likely end up being an never ending Labour dictatorship.

It would literally be a Government that people did vote for.

[Carth]

A while ago, the Union at work voted in a 'pay structure' that gave in one hand and took with the other, leaving many dissatisfied.

The problem here, was that only union members could vote on it, which was around 25% of the workforce . . ho hum

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by gba93

... and I doubt that all the Remain voters "educated" themselves either - if they had have done they may well have voted differently.

According to statistics Remain voters are highly educated !