PM Boris forms a government

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Damien

But in this case they're saying even if a 'Government of National Unity' is formed, i.e Parliament has confidence in a different Government, he would refuse to acknowledge that. Until there is a Government the last PM remains but if Parliament says 'Hey, this is the government and this is who leads it' what compels the last PM to go?

That's covered in the link above I think:

The IfG points out that a Prime Minister who has lost a vote in such circumstances would have to choose between hanging on and hoping to regain the confidence of the House; or handing over to the leader of the Opposition,even if they seemed unlikely to be able to put together a parliamentary majority.

I think it's a bluff. In the end, I don't think he has the power to ignore Parliament passing confidence in a new Government, otherwise what would stop someone doing that upon losing an election other than moral weight?

The Queen can send in the guards to turf him out if needs be

---------- Post added at 11:44 ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 ----------

Originally Posted by BenMcr

That's covered in the link above I think:

But again that precedes Parliament passing confidence in someone else. If they've done that how can he hold on?

[Mr K]

And what happens to UK plc amongst all this chaos?? Who the hell is going to invest anything in this shambles of a country run by a Muppet?

Originally Posted by Damien

I think it's a bluff. In the end, I don't think he has the power to ignore Parliament passing confidence in a new Government, otherwise what would stop someone doing that upon losing an election other than moral weight?

The Queen can send in the guards to turf him out if needs be

But this is the whole point. It isn’t about who has the power to do what; it is about what has always happened as a result of convention, and sadly the principle of convention has been somewhat undermined recently.

Only the Queen can appoint a Prime Minister and only the Queen can replace one. If Parliament wished to force Boris to resign then it would have to petition the Queen directly and ask her to do it. That would place her directly into a political position. In our constitution that’s about as close to pulling the nuclear trigger as you can get. If the alternative was a general election, following which Boris would resign in the conventional fashion if he lost, then there is absolutely no way the Queen would intervene. She would always follow the path that does not require her intervention.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Damien

But again that precedes Parliament passing confidence in someone else. If they've done that how can he hold on?

Because as I read it, it doesn't force the government out directly.

They (and the PM) are allowed to stay during the 14 day window to try and regain the confidence of parliament. They can choose to hand over to someone else to try to form a government if they wish, but it's not required.

The Cabinet Manual says that in the 14-day period: “an alternative Government can be formed from the House of Commons as presently constituted, or the incumbent Government can seek to regain the confidence of the House.”

If an alternative Government is formed, the fact that the second motion must express confidence in ‘Her Majesty’s Government’ means that its leader must have been appointed Prime Minister by the Queen before he or she can test the opinion of the House by putting the second motion.

The forcing out is if they can't gain confidence, and haven't allowed anyone else to, an election must be called.

Originally Posted by Chris

Only the Queen can appoint a Prime Minister and only the Queen can replace one. If Parliament wished to force Boris to resign then it would have to petition the Queen directly and ask her to do it. That would place her directly into a political position. In our constitution that’s about as close to pulling the nuclear trigger as you can get. If the alternative was a general election, following which Boris would resign in the conventional fashion if he lost, then there is absolutely no way the Queen would intervene. She would always follow the path that does not require her intervention.

I think the Queen would be brought into irrespective when faced with a PM who refuses to leave despite having a Parliament that has confidence in someone else. That seems like a rubicon crossed if that ever actually happens. I mean what would she do if this were after an election and the existing PM refused to go? She would have to fire them.

The question is how far can you break convention before the Queen does have to enter politics? Because in the end, the buck does stop at her door.

From what we know about Boris Johnson I don't him being the one willing to do it either. I suspect this is a bluff.

Originally Posted by Damien

I think the Queen would be brought into irrespective when faced with a PM who refuses to leave despite having a Parliament that has confidence in someone else. That seems like a rubicon crossed if that ever actually happens. I mean what would she do if this were after an election and the existing PM refused to go? She would have to fire them.

From what we know about Boris Johnson I don't him being the one willing to do it either. I suspect this is a bluff.

You’re going too far down the road of “what ifs”. It isn’t after an election. Calling an election rather than resigning is unconventional but not illegal and I agree with Ben’s reading of the FTPA; that Act does in my view strengthen the PM’s moral authority to sit through two no confidence motions and then take it to the country rather than simply resigning.

Originally Posted by Chris

You’re going too far down the road of “what ifs”. It isn’t after an election. Calling an election rather than resigning is unconventional but not illegal and I agree with Ben’s reading of the FTPA; that Act does in my view strengthen the PM’s moral authority to sit through two no confidence motions and then take it to the country rather than simply resigning.

Losing a no-confidence vote and going into an election is fine. No problem.

But there is a part of the FTPA that states another government can be formed in those 14 days without an election. We're talking about a scenario where that has happened, a confidence motion is passed in another grouping not led by Boris Johnson. In this case, they are saying they would ignore it.

In which case how does it even led to an election since the 14-day deadline was circumvented by the confidence motion?

If this motion is carried, there is a 14 calendar-day period in which a Government may be confirmed in office by a resolution in the form:

“That this House has confidence in Her Majesty’s Government.”

The only confusion I can see here is if anyone is even allowed to try and form a government. Which is Ben's point here:

They can choose to hand over to someone else to try to form a government if they wish, but it's not required.

But I don't see where that is specifically made clear.

If such a motion passes then how can Boris Johnson stay on and if he does how can he then call an election if, as my reading of the act leads me to believe, the 14-day deadline doesn't get reached?

What point of your point I am missing? Are we just disagreeing on if it's possible for another government to be formed because I don't see where that is made clear in the act....

---------- Post added at 12:55 ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 ----------

Looking at the cabinet advice thing: https://publications.parliament.uk/p.../1813/1813.pdf

The Act provides no guidance on what occurs during the 14-day period following an
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 no confidence motion being passed. As the Clerk of the
House told us, what occurs during this period is a matter politics, and not of procedure.
Evidence to this inquiry and the Cabinet Manual set out that the Prime Minister would
be expected to continue in office unless someone else could command the confidence
of the House. If someone else could command the confidence of the House, the Prime
Minster would be expected to resign. Not doing so would risk drawing the Sovereign
into the political process, something the Cabinet Manual is very clear it intends to avoid.
At any point during this period, a motion of confidence in Her Majesty’s Government
under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 could be put down and that that would
prevent the election. After 14 days a general election would automatically follow.

Suggests to me that another government could be formed and the cabinet office views it as the responsibility being on the PM to resign to avoid brining the Queen into it.

But if he doesn't then what? The advice there suggests no election and yet no government....

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Damien

The only confusion I can see here is if anyone is even allowed to try and form a government. Which is Ben's point here:

But I don't see where that is specifically made clear.

If such a motion passes then how can Boris Johnson stay on and if he does how can he then call an election if, as my reading of the act leads me to believe, the 14-day deadline doesn't get reached?

What point of your point I am missing? Are we just disagreeing on if it's possible for another government to be formed because I don't see where that is made clear in the act....

So there is a bit more in the Cabinet Manual than the previous page I linked to. This is in Section 2.19:

The Prime Minister is expected to resign where it is clear that he or she does not have the confidence of the House of Commons and that an alternative government does have the confidence.

However it's 'expected' rather than 'required', so I still don't see that it forces a resignation.

The problem here is that this has never been tested in principle or law - currently the rules are all theoretical. By the time they're tested, it may be too late for the No Deal avoidance people are hoping these achieves.

Originally Posted by BenMcr

However it's 'expected' rather than 'required', so I still don't see that it forces a resignation.
.

Yup, but then we also don't have an election either way because the confidence motion was passed.

There is this massive loophole in the whole process where the election has been avoided, FTPA has done it's job, but the incumbent doesn't resign.

EDIT; Actually reading the flowchart there suggests the 14-day timer continues while they await the confidence motion. So yeah Boris can wait it out and refuse to resign.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Damien

There is this massive loophole in the whole process where the election has been avoided, FTPA has done it's job, but the incumbent doesn't resign.

That would only happen if the government got a confidence vote after the no confidence one.

Otherwise without a confidence vote, the election must be called. But then the date is set by the outgoing government.

Originally Posted by BenMcr

That would only happen if the government got a confidence vote after the no confidence one.

Otherwise without a confidence vote, the election must be called. But then the date is set by the outgoing government.

Yeah, I thought the FTPA could be stopped simply by passing a confidence motion in someone else whilst in opposition. Reading the flowchart the words 'Parliament has Confidence in HMG' makes more sense.

I kind of want to see this all play out really. Be fun to see what actually happens in those 14 days.

Also, we probably need to legislate what happens if a PM refuses to resign to protect the Monarchy in future.

[nomadking]

Convention only applies when it's something the Liberals and the Left agree with. Eg Honouring a referendum vote.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Damien

Yeah, I thought the FTPA could be stopped simply by passing a confidence motion in someone else whilst in opposition. Reading the flowchart the words 'Parliament has Confidence in HMG' makes more sense.

I kind of want to see this all play out really. Be fun to see what actually happens in those 14 days.

Also, we probably need to legislate what happens if a PM refuses to resign to protect the Monarchy in future.

Protect the Monarchy from what exactly?

[jonbxx]

Hey, we could end like Belgium who didn't have a government for 535 days after their General Election in 2010 - https://brussels-express.eu/fun-fact...ut-government/

If Boris refused to go, I could see the Queen passing the buck to the Privy Council to sort things. There are some right characters in there - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Privy_Council