Brexit

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Chris

I’m curious whether you can cite any examples to back this up (I.e. I sincerely doubt that you can).

There will be an election this time, and the entire party membership will select the leader from the shortlist of 2 presented them by the parliamentary party. Quite how you reason that this will result in a lessening of leadership authority in any circumstances is unclear to say the least; in this case, as the new Tory leader will be replacing one whose failure is historic in magnitude, your claim is just bizarre.

The entire Tory party membership mainly consists of 60 year old white men. Something wrong if this incredibly small unrepresentative group gets to decide who runs the country.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

I’m curious whether you can cite any examples to back this up (I.e. I sincerely doubt that you can).

There will be an election this time, and the entire party membership will select the leader from the shortlist of 2 presented them by the parliamentary party. Quite how you reason that this will result in a lessening of leadership authority in any circumstances is unclear to say the least; in this case, as the new Tory leader will be replacing one whose failure is historic in magnitude, your claim is just bizarre.

Leadership given by members of the Conservative Party does not equate to leadership as viewed by Conservative voters, let alone the wider electorate.

---------- Post added at 21:23 ---------- Previous post was at 21:22 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Here we go. You’ve done very well over the months passing yourself off as a middle of road left of centre type person. When it’s clear you’re most likely a fully paid up momentum member and Corbyn sycophant.

Is privatising the NHS a good idea?

You’ve understood me well, I thank you for that, but right now Corbyn (constrained by Parliament) is a better alternative than the Conservatives.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Is privatising the NHS a good idea?

No. Some public functions do not belong in the private sector. ( much in the same way some sectors don’t belong in the public sector) Prison Service for example, and the NHS.

But the NHS cannot continue as is, that is certain. Any party that promised to me all that they would do is throw more money at it wont get my vote.

right now Corbyn (constrained by Parliament) is a better alternative than the Conservatives.

Corbyn under any ticket is a disaster, and I doubt he would win anyway. Any
Labour leader worth anything would be wiping the floor with the Tories but he so incompetent and distrusted he’s made no gains against potentially the worst Tory leader we ever seen.

Any new Tory leader with any skills could and should beat Corbyn at a GE, but it shouldn’t happen until we have left.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Pierre

No. Some public functions do not belong in the private sector. ( much in the same way some sectors don’t belong in the public sector) Prison Service for example, and the NHS.
.

And the Railways, and Water supply......

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mr K

And the Railways, and Water supply......

Electricity, gas...

Originally Posted by jfman

Leadership given by members of the Conservative Party does not equate to leadership as viewed by Conservative voters, let alone the wider electorate.

Agreed, but the new leader’s authority in parliament is all that counts with regards to controlling the Commons and getting government business passed.

Their authority amongst Tory MPs will be much improved on May’s (which admittedly isn’t saying much).

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

Agreed, but the new leader’s authority in parliament is all that counts with regards to controlling the Commons and getting government business passed.

Their authority amongst Tory MPs will be much improved on May’s (which admittedly isn’t saying much).

That’s not guaranteed. You can make the final two with 200 MPs opposing.

---------- Post added at 00:13 ---------- Previous post was at 00:10 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Any new Tory leader with any skills could and should beat Corbyn at a GE, but it shouldn’t happen until we have left.

Let’s have fun and find out.

Brexit supporters are literally shitting themselves it ever gets tested in the polls. Farage, while popular, will not get seventeen million votes.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

We are meek bystanders in any trade deals we enter, because everyone knows we have none. Your emotive terminology is worthless.

Don't be ridiculous. We are a thriving economy and are well placed to do trade deals that are beneficial to us.

---------- Post added at 02:31 ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Is privatising the NHS a good idea?

You’ve understood me well, I thank you for that, but right now Corbyn (constrained by Parliament) is a better alternative than the Conservatives.

Corbyn? The Marxist? Have you lost your mind??

---------- Post added at 02:35 ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

That’s not guaranteed. You can make the final two with 200 MPs opposing.

---------- Post added at 00:13 ---------- Previous post was at 00:10 ----------



Let’s have fun and find out.

Brexit supporters are literally shitting themselves it ever gets tested in the polls. Farage, while popular, will not get seventeen million votes.

No, we are not. A General Election is just not necessary. A Brexiteer at the helm is all we need. It's the moaning remainers who have got us into this mess. We just need someone with guts to lead this country.

Originally Posted by jfman

Your emotive terminology is worthless.

jfman, you have been remarkably absent and quiet from this topic for a while, though your views are welcome, the tone from you, is not, do not post like this again saying someones contribution, how much ever emotive you consider it, is worthless, I will not put up with this from anyone.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

It won’t allow no deal. If the new PM wants to take that risk then I welcome it. The sooner we have a second referendum, and a Labour government the better.

Much as it pains me to do so, I disagree: Brexit started as an attempt to shore up the Tory Party and it will end as one. The EU Election results will show the a decimated Tory vote. The Tory Grandees will take this data and project a GE result that will terrify them. They will lose power and this, against the worse opposition leader for many years. The Brexit Party will hit the Tories harder than Labour, enough to take away their ability to govern. There would be a probable Labour/Lib-Dem coalition but after the 2010 debacle, this may not play out.

So, the Tory MPs will look at the looming disaster and do what they all do, put their interests first. Sod the country. The Tory party and it's continued existence will be the only game in town. So, they will get behind a No Deal candidate because, if they do not, they are toast at the next GE. May has seen to this ..

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Electricity, gas...

No, utilities belong in the Private sector, i’m Ambivalent about the railways. I wouldn’t mind them in public ownership.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Much as it pains me to do so, I disagree: Brexit started as an attempt to shore up the Tory Party and it will end as one. The EU Election results will show the a decimated Tory vote. The Tory Grandees will take this data and project a GE result that will terrify them. They will lose power and this, against the worse opposition leader for many years. The Brexit Party will hit the Tories harder than Labour, enough to take away their ability to govern. There would be a probable Labour/Lib-Dem coalition but after the 2010 debacle, this may not play out.

So, the Tory MPs will look at the looming disaster and do what they all do, put their interests first. Sod the country. The Tory party and it's continued existence will be the only game in town. So, they will get behind a No Deal candidate because, if they do not, they are toast at the next GE. May has seen to this ..

How will that bring back votes from the Brexit party?

Originally Posted by Pierre

No. Some public functions do not belong in the private sector. ( much in the same way some sectors don’t belong in the public sector) Prison Service for example, and the NHS.

But the NHS cannot continue as is, that is certain. Any party that promised to me all that they would do is throw more money at it wont get my vote.

The NHS probably does need more money though. Ageing population and ever-developing new treatments can help. It's not like its funding is especially high compared to other European nations who'll also face these problems.

https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm

We're about average.

Reform could well be needed but the funding question will remain.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Damien

The NHS probably does need more money though. Ageing population and ever-developing new treatments can help. It's not like its funding is especially high compared to other European nations who'll also face these problems.

https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm

We're about average.

Reform could well be needed but the funding question will remain.

Hiving services off to a private sector is a problem. Particularly when they then sue for not getting the contract. - This is a huge waste of NHS money and needs to be stopped.

The staffing shortage will continue and get worse with Brexit, until we can train enough of our own Doctors & Nurses, which will be some years away. Then the problem will be keeping them.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Angua

Hiving services off to a private sector is a problem. Particularly when they then sue for not getting the contract. - This is a huge waste of NHS money and needs to be stopped.

The staffing shortage will continue and get worse with Brexit, until we can train enough of our own Doctors & Nurses, which will be some years away. Then the problem will be keeping them.

Especially since bursaries were abolished.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ries-abolished

The NHS could be short of almost 70,000 nurses within five years, according to a leaked copy of the government’s long-awaited plan to tackle the staffing crisis.

Blaming the government’s decision to abolish bursaries for nursing students, a draft of the NHS people plan says: “Our analysis shows a 40,000 (11%) shortfall [in the number of nurses needed in England] in 2018-19 which widens to 68,500 (16%) by 2023-24 without intervention, as demand for nurses grows faster than supply.”

The plan says George Osborne’s decision in 2015 when he was chancellor of the exchequer to stop paying nursing students’ tuition fees and maintenance grants has led to a huge drop in those applying to be nurses at the same time as the NHS is facing its most debilitating shortage of them in decades.

Scrapping bursaries had proved very damaging and they should be reinstated, the Royal College of Nursing said – a suggestion the document does not address. “Already faced with a dire shortage of staff, ministers compounded the problem by pulling the rug from under tomorrow’s nurses.