Brexit

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

How do you figure that?

General elections are fought on a range of issues, but if there’s one particular thing that lost it for the Tories it was May’s disastrous campaign in which she promised to take her core vote’s life savings off them.

Both main parties pledged to implement Brexit; beyond that headline I sincerely doubt whether most voters paid much attention to the details of how they proposed to implement it. However, it was emphatically not Labour’s policy to hold a second referendum prior to us leaving. That they have tried to make that a precondition of supporting the Brexit bill is a betrayal of their manifesto and those who voted for them.

Just to remind you that said Tory Manifesto pledges:

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/c...sperous....pdf

Theresa May’s Conservatives will deliver: The best possible deal for Britain as we leave the European Union delivered by a smooth, orderly Brexit.

I say again, no mandate for No Deal ..

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Angua

Surely it is better that a government at least attempts to bring the country together, rather than ignore half the voters.

That’s what May tried to do and ended up pleasing no one. You can’t please everyone, some people will have to lump it. During this exercise you have to remember what side actually won.

---------- Post added at 19:11 ---------- Previous post was at 19:09 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

Just to remind you that said Tory Manifesto pledges:

I say again, no mandate for No Deal ..

You can have a smooth orderly no deal, if you plan for it.

Originally Posted by ianch99

Just to remind you that said Tory Manifesto pledges:

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/c...sperous....pdf



I say again, no mandate for No Deal ..

Gosh, you’re sounding desperate now.

May has demonstrably tried to deliver on that. However as she doesn’t have a Commons majority her options are limited. This is still fairly novel to us with our Westminster voting system and its tendency to deliver majority governments that are then solely responsible for whether or not their manifesto is delivered. It is however pretty routine in European countries where coalitions and confidence arrangements are the norm and manifesto delivery is always down to the art of the possible. That’s the scenario we are now in, and the only question we can ask is whether parties are trying to live up to their manifesto, not whether they actually do it.

I appreciate your need to grasp at any straw that might, just possibly, de-legitimise a No-Deal scenario but ultimately Parliament has already ruined your hopes by legislating in a way that makes that scenario the default.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Chris

How do you figure that?

General elections are fought on a range of issues, but if there’s one particular thing that lost it for the Tories it was May’s disastrous campaign in which she promised to take her core vote’s life savings off them.

Both main parties pledged to implement Brexit; beyond that headline I sincerely doubt whether most voters paid much attention to the details of how they proposed to implement it. However, it was emphatically not Labour’s policy to hold a second referendum prior to us leaving. That they have tried to make that a precondition of supporting the Brexit bill is a betrayal of their manifesto and those who voted for them.

Therefore one has to ask, what version of Brexit did ALL 17.4 million leave voters want? Only now are the Brexit Ltd voters choosing the "No Deal" option.

Firm believers in Brexit claim to know what they wanted. That still leaves a lot of leave voters who may not want that Hard Brexit so favoured by disaster capitalists.

[denphone]

Andrea Leadsom resigns as Commons leader.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48374098

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Angua

Therefore one has to ask, what version of Brexit did ALL 17.4 million leave voters want? Only now are the Brexit Ltd voters choosing the "No Deal" option.

Firm believers in Brexit claim to know what they wanted. That still leaves a lot of leave voters who may not want that Hard Brexit so favoured by disaster capitalists.

Brexit voters overwhelmingly wanted a leave deal and voted for the Conservative and Labour parties who both said they would get one. If they had wanted no deal they would have voted for UKIP.

[gba93]

All 17.4 million leave voters voted to LEAVE ~ not have a second referendum to overturn the vote nor to accept a deal which doesn't result in us leaving. Let's stop fiddling around at the edges and get on with leaving and, if no deal is the only realistic option, let's grab it enthusiastically with both hands and make a great success of it.

[denphone]

Some of the main points from Andrea Leadsoms resignation statement.

Leadsom, a former Tory leadership candidate in 2016, outlined four reasons for her decision in her letter.

She said: “1. I do not believe that we will be a truly sovereign United Kingdom through the deal that is now proposed;

“2. I have always maintained that a second referendum would be dangerously divisive, and I do not support the government willingly facilitating such a concession. It would also risk undermining our union which is something I passionately want to see strengthened;

“3. There has been such a breakdown of government processes that recent Brexit-related legislative proposals have not been properly scrutinised or approved by cabinet members;

“4. The tolerance to those in cabinet who have advocated policies contrary to the Government’s position has led to a complete breakdown of collective responsibility.”

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Angua

So why when people were offered a choice on which sort of Brexit, we ended up with a hung parliament? If the version planned by May was preferred, she would have romped home.

Surely it is better that a government at least attempts to bring the country together, rather than ignore half the voters.

Surely it is better to respect the Referendum result, which was never going to bring the country together and offer a referendum on May's deal or no deal.

It is a pillar of democracy that the losers accept (however ruefully) the majority result of a poll.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Surely it is better to respect the Referendum result, which was never going to bring the country together and offer a referendum on May's deal or no deal.

It is a pillar of democracy that the losers accept (however ruefully) the majority result of a poll.

A majority in the country voted to leave. Then an even bigger majority in the country voted for the parties who wanted to leave with a deal. Not for the no-deal Ukip or remain LibDems. They voted overwhelmingly for the leave-with-a-deal Conservative and Labour parties

Why should the last democratic vote in the country should be disrespected by the losers?

For crying out loud, why are we going over old ground about why people voted for Brexit, I’m sick of it and it’s the same people (mostly the we want a second referendum Remainers) Pack it in.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Brexit voters overwhelmingly wanted a leave deal and voted for the Conservative and Labour parties who both said they would get one. If they had wanted no deal they would have voted for UKIP.

I totally agree, I voted Remain, but I think all leavers would want an agreement that took us out of it the EU and all it’s institutions and which laid out a great new relationship with the EU based on trade and close cooperation on a whole raft of issues but with no political influence over U.K. affairs. Everyone would want that.

But that’s not on offer, the EU do not want to give us a deal of that nature, so if we can’t the great deal we want what do we do? We didn’t vote for Brexit on the condition that we got a deal.

We would all love the the right deal, but if no such deal is on offer, the default has to be to leave without a deal and negotiate our relationship from outside the EU.

---------- Post added at 20:54 ---------- Previous post was at 20:52 ----------

Originally Posted by denphone

Some of the main points from Andrea Leadsoms resignation statement.

3 & 4 are pretty telling

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Pierre

3 & 4 are pretty telling

Absolutely..

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

For crying out loud, why are we going over old ground about why people voted for Brexit, I’m sick of it and it’s the same people (mostly the we want a second referendum Remainers) Pack it in.

I don't want a second referendum. I accept the result and have consistently done so. If someone talks of respecting the referendum result and ignores the most recent one it should be pointed out. I agree largely with Pierre except the default should not be no-deal.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by denphone

Andrea Leadsom resigns as Commons leader.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48374098

I always find it odd that they can resign and leave their position straight away, whilst in the real world those resigning have to give notice.