Brexit - Page 45

Pierre · 27-03-2019, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

It will make things better. A well informed electorate will make a choice based on facts and not speculation. Said referendum will either affirm the first result or overwhelmingly reject it. .

I don't believe they are the only two outcomes.

You forgot, slightly reject it. If Remain won by the same margin as Leave won last time, or less. Or if Leave won by an even smaller majority, it solves and decides nothing.

jfman · 27-03-2019, 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

I don't believe they are the only two outcomes.

You forgot, slightly reject it. If Remain won by the same margin as Leave won last time, or less. Or if Leave won by an even smaller majority, it solves and decides nothing.

Then we continue in limbo. Eventually the people will have to conclusively settle the argument. If people concluded by majority to vote for no deal, May’s deal, Norway or some other definition of leave the weaknesses of the leave argument at present would be gone.

Carth · 27-03-2019, 16:10

The problem (for some) with any kind of second referendum/vote is that it will split the 'leavers' votes, therefore leaving 'remain' well out in front

Remain have one choice . . to remain as is.

Leave can be offered multiple choices on how to leave, and there's no way 17 million will all choose the same one.

IMO we will be going through multiple brexit choices until somebody is brave enough to pull the plug and we leave with no deal. Only then can the politicians have a clear path in front of them instead of wandering up and down blind alleys

mrmistoffelees · 27-03-2019, 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth

The problem (for some) with any kind of second referendum/vote is that it will split the 'leavers' votes, therefore leaving 'remain' well out in front

Remain have one choice . . to remain as is.

Leave can be offered multiple choices on how to leave, and there's no way 17 million will all choose the same one.

IMO we will be going through multiple brexit choices until somebody is brave enough to pull the plug and we leave with no deal. Only then can the politicians have a clear path in front of them instead of wandering up and down blind alleys

remain requires 65/70% to win

leave with mays/leave no deal requires 65/70% combined to win

If leave with mays deal/leave no deal wins then the higher percentage of the two options is the route taken.

I could not argue with that and would accept to leave.

Carth · 27-03-2019, 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

remain requires 65/70% to win

leave with mays/leave no deal requires 65/70% combined to win

If leave with mays deal/leave no deal wins then the higher percentage of the two options is the route taken.

I could not argue with that and would accept to leave.

oh if only it was that easy

mrmistoffelees · 27-03-2019, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth

oh if only it was that easy

It is a tad simplistic

Pierre · 27-03-2019, 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

Then we continue in limbo. Eventually the people will have to conclusively settle the argument.

But you keep telling me that Parliament is sovereign, and that they can do whatever they want regardless of what the people say. How come you now put it back to the people to sort out. When they already spoke clearly first time around.

Parliament should have enacted the will of the people first time around.

Quote:

If people concluded by majority to vote for no deal, May’s deal, Norway or some other definition of leave the weaknesses of the leave argument at present would be gone.

Are you saying we should a referendum of indicative votes?

papa smurf · 27-03-2019, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

But you keep telling me that Parliament is sovereign, and that they can do whatever they want regardless of what the people say. How come you now put it back to the people to sort out. When they already spoke clearly first time around.

Parliament should have enacted the will of the people first time around.

Are you saying we should a referendum of indicative votes?

That was the wrong people speaking the wrong answer.

mrmistoffelees · 27-03-2019, 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

But you keep telling me that Parliament is sovereign, and that they can do whatever they want regardless of what the people say. How come you now put it back to the people to sort out. When they already spoke clearly first time around.

Parliament should have enacted the will of the people first time around.

Are you saying we should a referendum of indicative votes?

So, here's the problem with that statement and again we go back to the crux of the issue

There was no definition of what leave meant, and leave means different things to different leave voters. This is not the fault of those who voted to leave, it's the fault of the government for not phrasing the question with enough detail.

jfman · 27-03-2019, 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

But you keep telling me that Parliament is sovereign, and that they can do whatever they want regardless of what the people say. How come you now put it back to the people to sort out. When they already spoke clearly first time around.

Parliament should have enacted the will of the people first time around.

Are you saying we should a referendum of indicative votes?

Parliament is sovereign. However, following a second referendum to leave there would be no room for MPs to manoeuvre. The people have spoken clearly, with full knowledge there would be no unicorn Brexit.

If Parliament can’t make a decision then it has to go back to the people. Self serving politicians don’t want blame.

Pierre · 27-03-2019, 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

Parliament is sovereign. However, following a second referendum to leave there would be no room for MPs to manoeuvre. The people have spoken clearly, with full knowledge there would be no unicorn Brexit.

If Parliament can’t make a decision then it has to go back to the people. Self serving politicians don’t want blame.

What if the people can't make a decision?

What margin of victory would be seen as acceptable.

What if it was

17,000,001 Remain

and

17,000,000 Leave

Do we Remain, all's fair, accept the result and bugger off.

and vice versa, Leave vote confirmed beyond question?

This is why a second referendum would be an absolute disaster. It has be sorted out now.

denphone · 27-03-2019, 18:30

Theresa May tells Tory MPs she will resign before next phase of Brexit talks.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...quit-live-news

1andrew1 · 27-03-2019, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by denphone

Theresa May tells Tory MPs she will resign before next phase of Brexit talks.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...quit-live-news

Problem with that is that it's conditional on her deal being voted through. At the moment, MPs may not even get a chance to even vote on it.

Dave42 · 27-03-2019, 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Problem with that is that it's conditional on her deal being voted through. At the moment, MPs may not even get a chance to even vote on it.

exactly Bercow said again got to be significant change and everyone know it exact same deal

denphone · 27-03-2019, 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Problem with that is that it's conditional on her deal being voted through. At the moment, MPs may not even get a chance to even vote on it.

Indeed the deal has to go through but if it does then there will be a Conservative leadership contest to elect a new leader to replace her and then there will probably be a General Election after that.