Brexit - Page 33

Pierre · 24-03-2019, 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

On the contrary, this is a Conservative party mess. A revived UKIP equivalent will chip away at their percentage.

No, this is a parliamentary mess.

mrmistoffelees · 24-03-2019, 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

No, this is a parliamentary mess.

Which could have been possibly been avoided if May hadn’t tried to do this all herself and instead gone cross party.

The buck for this current shambles stops squarely with May

Pierre · 24-03-2019, 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

While I agree he’s useless I think if he’d supported a second referendum earlier (or more forcefully) that’d have resulted in the Conservatives finding a common position earlier. We’d have got Brexit.

Nope, I don’t see it that way. I don’t care who is in power, what deal they came up with, you will never get a consensus on Brexit through Parliament.

denphone · 24-03-2019, 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Which could have been possibly been avoided if May hadn’t tried to do this all herself and instead gone cross party.

Exactly as no matter how much distaste political parties might have for each other going cross party would have certainly been a much better option.

Pierre · 24-03-2019, 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

A dog whistle with a union flag has the scope to get a couple of percent without even trying. A fairly incompetent one could still get enough to undermine the Tory vote.

As i recall it, UKIP, and before it the BNP did very well in the Labour heartlands.

denphone · 24-03-2019, 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

The buck for this current shambles stops squarely with May

No ifs , no buts and no maybes...

Pierre · 24-03-2019, 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Which could have been possibly been avoided if May hadn’t tried to do this all herself and instead gone cross party.

The buck for this current shambles stops squarely with May

Cross party would/will solve nothing. It is clear to anyone that you can’t have Brexit by committee.

You want a horse you get a camel.

It needs a singular view of Brexit and drive, purpose and more importantly a thumping majority - even that would probably not be enough.

OLD BOY · 24-03-2019, 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by denphone

Exactly as no matter how much distaste political parties might have for each other going cross party would have certainly been a much better option.

You must be joking, Den! Do you really think they would have got any co-operation with Labour or the Scottish Nationalists? There was no way that would ever happen. I think you know that. The SNP don't want Brexit and Labour keep changing their position and just want to oppose any kind of deal.

It would have been obvious that this was a non-starter.

---------- Post added at 10:59 ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

The only reason to replace May now is for a long extension or Norway. If the plan was no deal on 12th April they could force her to see that through and stick the knife in afterwards.

Er - Norway isn't Brexit. Just thought I'd remind you.

**Maggy** · 24-03-2019, 11:04

So who is going to step forward to take over?It's a poisoned chalice for whoever is in charge and I can see an image of prospective candidates pushing each other forwards in an attempt to make sure they can step in after that candidate sinks as well and Brexit is resolved in some manner whatever transpires.
So who will finally stand atop the dung heap?

denphone · 24-03-2019, 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You must be joking, Den! Do you really think they would have got any co-operation with Labour or the Scottish Nationalists? There was no way that would ever happen. I think you know that. The SNP don't want Brexit and Labour keep changing their position and just want to oppose any kind of deal.

It would have been obvious that this was a non-starter.

And where are we now with plotters in Theresa May's government plotting her downfall as l speak so much so she might be gone at the end of next week.

---------- Post added at 11:09 ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J

So who is going to step forward to take over?It's a poisoned chalice for whoever is in charge and I can see an image of prospective candidates pushing each other forwards in an attempt to make sure they can step in after that candidate sinks as well and Brexit is resolved in some manner whatever transpires.
So who will finally stand atop the dung heap?

A government of Unity given we have the gravest crisis in this country since the second World War might be one idea.

jfman · 24-03-2019, 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

Nope, I don’t see it that way. I don’t care who is in power, what deal they came up with, you will never get a consensus on Brexit through Parliament.

It’s not the job of the Leader of the Oppositon to facilitate bad Government policy. They command a majority alongside their confidence and supply partner.

You can blame Labour all you want but the fact remains if May had the full support of her party she would have won the last “meaningful vote”.

---------- Post added at 11:26 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Er - Norway isn't Brexit. Just thought I'd remind you.

Incorrect.

Having the exact relationship Norway has with Brussels completely satisfies the result of the referendum question asked on 23rd June 2016. We would no longer be a member of the European Union.

---------- Post added at 11:28 ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

It needs a singular view of Brexit and drive, purpose and more importantly a thumping majority - even that would probably not be enough.

Actually 100% agree on this point. For Brexit to be achieved it needs a government who can’t be held to the whims of the ERG/DUP.

OLD BOY · 24-03-2019, 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J

So who is going to step forward to take over?It's a poisoned chalice for whoever is in charge and I can see an image of prospective candidates pushing each other forwards in an attempt to make sure they can step in after that candidate sinks as well and Brexit is resolved in some manner whatever transpires.
So who will finally stand atop the dung heap?

You've hit that nail, Maggy. Theresa May keeps getting it in the neck for all her efforts and yet no-one else would have wanted this job. Faced with a Remainer Parliament, what deal was she supposed to come up with? People keep saying she's negotiated a bad deal, but this was the only one we were going to get. The only alternative to it that delivers on the referendum is no deal, which is a much better scenario than many think it is.

None of the other options that have been discussed achieve that. For each one of those other options, ask yourself - does it extract us from free movement? Do we still have control of our own laws? Are we free to forge new trade deals with other countries?

If the answer to any of these questions is no, then that is not what the people thought they were voting for.

So it's either TM's deal, no deal, or unacceptable betrayal that will never be forgotten or forgiven.

---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by denphone

And where are we now with plotters in Theresa May's government plotting her downfall as l speak so much so she might be gone at the end of next week.

True, but that doesn't address my point.

jfman · 24-03-2019, 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

ask yourself - does it extract us from free movement? Do we still have control of our own laws? Are we free to forge new trade deals with other countries?

None of these things were specifically stated on the ballot paper, so you’ve no way to quantify which (if any) need to be delivered.

Sephiroth · 24-03-2019, 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Which could have been possibly been avoided if May hadn’t tried to do this all herself and instead gone cross party.

The buck for this current shambles stops squarely with May

It's very tempting to agree with that. But Corbyn has been playing games and I blame him equally.

OLD BOY · 24-03-2019, 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

Incorrect.

Having the exact relationship Norway has with Brussels completely satisfies the result of the referendum question asked on 23rd June 2016. We would no longer be a member of the European Union.

We would still be obliged to adopt the four freedoms, which would be unacceptable, and we would still have to pay huge amounts of money to the EU. How exactly do you work out that the Norway option delivers on the referendum?

---------- Post added at 12:24 ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

None of these things were specifically stated on the ballot paper, so you’ve no way to quantify which (if any) need to be delivered.

You know perfectly well that immigration, getting back our sovereignty and stopping those payments to the EU were the principle drivers for those who voted for Leave. So your other options don't cut it, I'm afraid.