Brexit (Old)

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

This from the man who said in 2017 .

As has been said many, many, many, many , many times before for those of the hard of understanding.

We’re not negotiating a FTA, we’re trying to negotiate a Withdrawl agreement.

A FTA should be very easy as we’re already aligned regulatory wise. Which is also why a backstop should not be needed and is obviously for some other reason.

---------- Post added at 20:36 ---------- Previous post was at 20:34 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

We've already got a trade deal with the EU, it come with the membership..
Remainers are not to blame for Brexit ! It's a crap idea always has been.

You need to take a big big spoonful of realism.....try it, let go, free yourself you’ll feel better.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

What will is that then?

I think it's reasonable to say that the island of Ireland wants no border and the north would prefer to remain in the customs union to facilitate cross border trade.

It's only the Members for the 17th Century, the DUP, who want to see otherwise. Polling in Great Britain considers it a price worth paying for an orderly Brexit.

[1andrew1]

One myth about Theresa May's deal that needs dispelling.

We can never be trapped in a permanent customs union. As a sovereign nation we can always quit any kind of arrangement by resorting to the Vienna convention on international treaties.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

I think it's reasonable to say that the island of Ireland wants no border and the north would prefer to remain in the customs union to facilitate cross border trade.

As long as that union did not differentiate them from the rest of the UK, defacto unifying the Island of Ireland and separating from the UK.

It's only the Members for the 17th Century, the DUP, who want to see otherwise.

they are protecting the interests of their voters, that are as British as someone from Norwich.

---------- Post added at 20:57 ---------- Previous post was at 20:55 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

One myth about Theresa May's deal that needs dispelling.

We can never be trapped in a permanent customs union. As a sovereign nation we can always quit any kind of arrangement by resorting to the Vienna convention on international treaties.

But then we’re no further along as we are now?

Better to sort it out, or not, now.

[jfman]

Northern Ireland already has different laws - e.g. abortion as stated above.

It could easily retain it's own identity, the Queen and alignment to the UK over the vast vast majority of areas. Which most of them would probably vote for given the choice.

This farce is only going to push a united Ireland closer. Without bringing up who is likely to die off sooner rather than later, the birth rate is higher in nationalist voting communities than the unionist communities.

Brexit is truly an exceptional act of British Nationalism removing the objectivity of normally rational people over a huge number of issues.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

One myth about Theresa May's deal that needs dispelling.

We can never be trapped in a permanent customs union. As a sovereign nation we can always quit any kind of arrangement by resorting to the Vienna convention on international treaties.

With a Customs Union we would have to slavishly follow EU rules, WITHOUT having any say in them. We would NOT be able to set our own rules. We also would NOT be able to do other trade deals with other countries in product/service areas covered by the Customs Union. We would have to apply the same import tariffs that the EU tells us to. Turkey may be happy with that, then again the EU is gives them BILLIONS in cash.

Turkey has little or no freedom to develop trade policy with other countries across the world and its relationship with the EU is therefore asymmetric and dependent.
Yes, Turkey has around 20 free-trade agreements, but they are ultimately a one-way street that can put Turkish firms at a competitive disadvantage. Turkey has to open its markets to any country the EU strikes an agreement with. But it doesn’t get any say over how that agreement is formed and doesn’t even get the same immediate duty-free access to that country’s market that EU members do.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

. Without bringing up who is likely to die off sooner rather than later, the birth rate is higher in nationalist voting communities than the unionist communities.

There’s a joke in there about Catholic’s and Protestants, but I don’t need to go there as Monty Python did.

https://youtu.be/bzVHjg3AqIQ

https://youtu.be/PDBjsFAyiwA

Enjoy!

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by nomadking

With a Customs Union we would have to slavishly follow EU rules, WITHOUT having any say in them. We would NOT be able to set our own rules. We also would NOT be able to do other trade deals with other countries in product/service areas covered by the Customs Union. We would have to apply the same import tariffs that the EU tells us to. Turkey may be happy with that, then again the EU is gives them BILLIONS in cash.

I just explained that we can never be trapped in a Customs Union. Nothing you have said alters that fact.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I just explained that we can never be trapped in a Customs Union. Nothing you have said alters that fact.

But then we would be in a "no deal" situation. Those things/situations would exist as long as we part of(ie a slave to) a Customs Union. A customs union isn't the solution to anything.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by nomadking

But then we would be in a "no deal" situation. Those things/situations would exist as long as we part of(ie a slave to) a Customs Union. A customs union isn't the solution to anything.

The assertion that Theresa May's deal traps us in a Customs Union indefinitely is false. That is the point I am making.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

The assertion that Theresa May's deal traps us in a Customs Union indefinitely is false. That is the point I am making.

It doesn’t automatically trap us in a customs union forever, but if the backstop as currently conceived is triggered, it does trap us in one until the EU agrees we can leave. Unlike Article 50, under which we have the right to walk away, the backstop within the withdrawal agreement surrenders that right. Given the many things various EU members might want to extract concessions over - fishing access, Gibraltar, to name but two - it is intolerable for us to allow ourselves to be trapped in such a way. The backstop is such an insane idea that I have trouble believing May ever believed it would get past Parliament. In fact I find it easier to believe that she brought it back so that parliament could reject it and (hopefully) strengthen her hand to gain a better deal from the EU.

Originally Posted by nomadking

But then we would be in a "no deal" situation. Those things/situations would exist as long as we part of(ie a slave to) a Customs Union. A customs union isn't the solution to anything.

Emotive language to inflame things.

I’m part of a relationship, not a slave to it.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Chris

It doesn’t automatically trap us in a customs union forever, but if the backstop as currently conceived is triggered, it does trap us in one until the EU agrees we can leave. Unlike Article 50, under which we have the right to walk away, the backstop within the withdrawal agreement surrenders that right.

No sovereign nation can be trapped in such a way. We can leave by resorting to the Vienna Convention on International Treaties.

[jfman]

Fish!

Considering the £600bn trade between Britain and the EU (and the rebate!), there’s a lot of emphasis on something in the we net loss in small hundreds of millions once you factor in what we fish in EU waters.

I can’t help but think it’s purely emotive. “It’s our fish”. Just as they say in Scotland “it’s oor oil”.

[1andrew1]

Unusual development.

David Trimble threatens legal action against UK Government over Brexit backstop
Lord Trimble said that he and others are planning to initiate judicial review proceedings over an alleged breach of the Good Friday Agreement.
The former leader of the Ulster Unionist Party - currently sitting in the House of Lords as a Conservative peer - said the proceedings would demand the removal of the protocol on Northern Ireland from Prime Minister Theresa May's Withdrawal Agreement.
He said that the backstop should be replaced by alternative arrangements set out in a report entitled A Better Deal and A Better Future authored by Eurosceptic Conservative MP Steve Baker and published by the Global Britain group.
A spokesman for Lord Trimble was unable immediately to provide an explanation for the claim that the protocol breaches the Good Friday Agreement.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/p...ction-13951871

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Originally Posted by jfman

Fish!

Considering the £600bn trade between Britain and the EU (and the rebate!), there’s a lot of emphasis on something in the we net loss in small hundreds of millions once you factor in what we fish in EU waters.

I can’t help but think it’s purely emotive. “It’s our fish”. Just as they say in Scotland “it’s oor oil”.

Exactly. Emotional more than rational.